original loading black powder in 44-40

[Tater Pickens]

do any of you good folks know what the original loading for the 44-40 BP cartridge was? Was it 2F or 3F? I know the old ballon type cases could hold 40 grains where the modern cases will not unless you really compress the devil out of it(or so I have been told. Never done it myself). Just wondering whether it was 2 or 3 F.

I have a lot of Schutzen 2F on hand and am curious if it would be correct. I am not interested in mouse loads but would like to go full l house as much as feasible.

Thanks.

Tater Pickens

[Blackpowder Burn]

Tater,

I can't speak to the original load, but I shoot BP 44-40 for all my CAS loads.  I use 32 grains by weight of Goex 2Fg powder over a 200 grain Big Lube Mav Dutchman bullet.  I send lots of folks scampering from close proximity to the firing line when I shoot the stage.  They definitely are not mouse fart loads! 

[w44wcf]

According to some early WRA CO 44 WCF headstamped cartridges I dissected, they were loaded with 40 grs by weight of a powder that was  2F.

Compression on the powder charge was .20".

In testing, those balloon solid head cases held 2 grs more b.p. than modern brass. 

w44wcf

 

[Bryan Austin]

do any of you good folks know what the original loading for the 44-40 BP cartridge was? Was it 2F or 3F? I know the old ballon type cases could hold 40 grains where the modern cases will not unless you really compress the devil out of it(or so I have been told. Never done it myself). Just wondering whether it was 2 or 3 F.

I have a lot of Schutzen 2F on hand and am curious if it would be correct. I am not interested in mouse loads but would like to go full l house as much as feasible.

Thanks.

Tater Pickens

Check here http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=6267.15

Reply #21 by w44wcf

CASE CAPACITIES
Based on testing I have done with both balloon head and modern .44-40 cases, a balloon head .44-40 case holds only 2 grs. more powder than a solid head one......not the 7 gr. difference as indicated in the article that John Boy kindly referenced. 

FACTORY COMPRESSION
10 vintage .44-40 b.p. cartridges that I dissected that contained 40 grs. of b.p. by weight, indicated that the factories used an average of .20" compression with 200 gr. bullets and .24" with 217 gr. bullets.  A density check of the powder that was contained in those cartridges showed that it was 5% greater than the Goex FFG I have on hand.  In other words, 38 grs. of Goex would fill the same space as the 40 grs. of b.p. used in those cartridges.

BALLISTICS
The vintage .44-40 cartridges above, reassembled but using modern primers averaged 1,285 f.p.s. in a 24" barrel.  Add 15 f.p.s. for the velocity decay of the bullet by the time it reached the chronograph and the corrected muzzle velocity would be 1,300 f.p.s. which compares nicely with vintage .44-40 factory ballistics.

.44-40 B.P. PRESSURE
Some data printed in 1927 shows a factory .44-40 b.p. load @ 15,000 p.s.i.  According to Hodgdon, Pyrodex will give similar pressures / ballistics to b.p. They show a .44-40 handgun load using Pyrodex ....943 f.p.s / 12,700 CUP.   Add 300 f.p.s. for a 24" rifle and that would be close to 1,250 f.p.s.  If your load produces less velocity, then the pressures would be less.    As we know, different brands of b.p. have different ballistic strengths and thus would give different ballistics / pressures at the same volume. 

w44wcf

[Bryan Austin]

w44wcf beet me to it 

[Fairshake]

Tater, I have loaded the modern cases with 40 grains of 2F in Goex, Swiss and Diamondback powders. It does not take a compressing the heck out of it to achieve this loading.
I use a compression die that was purchased from Buffalo Arms that is built very nice. You may buy just the inner piece and use your own die body.
I know for a fact that W44wcf does not use a wad when doing this but I do. I use a .30 Walters vegetable wad in .44 caliber. Don't try to do the compression with your seating die and bullet as you will deform the bullet nose.
I use my own design of 44 WCF bullet that was done for me by Accurate Mould Co. W44wcf also did the same and has his design listed also.
To seat my bullet on top of the 40 grains of 2F BP I have to compress the charge .31 and it loads great.
I have used both Starline and R-P cases to date.
I fired these loads this past week end at a SASS match and after the first stage it was only the RO and myself in the firing area. The other shooters all went away.
The spotters were peeking through windows and door ways.
They said the tin roofs were lifting at each shot, that I don't know but I sure had myself a good time. Later David

[Tater Pickens]

Thanks for your insight and feed back fellas.

I think I'll get one of those compression dies from Buffalo and give the 40 grn of schutzen 2f a try.

I love watching the reaction of folks at the range who are shooting their 22's or AR 15 knockoffs when a good load of BP goes off.
Asafe and Merry Christmas to all.
Tater

[Dick Dastardly]

Loud booms, flames and smoke are part of being a Darksider.  Enjoy the pyrotechnics and watch the wimmen, kids and dogs run for cover.  Mouse phart pinkos will complain mightily, but that's part of the reason you're doin' it too.

Live the 1880s the way they were with hat, boots and guns that fit the period.  Period.

DD-DLoS

[Bryan Austin]

Tater, I have loaded the modern cases with 40 grains of 2F in Goex, Swiss and Diamondback powders. It does not take a compressing the heck out of it to achieve this loading.
I use a compression die that was purchased from Buffalo Arms that is built very nice. You may buy just the inner piece and use your own die body.
I know for a fact that W44wcf does not use a wad when doing this but I do. I use a .30 Walters vegetable wad in .44 caliber. Don't try to do the compression with your seating die and bullet as you will deform the bullet nose.
I use my own design of 44 WCF bullet that was done for me by Accurate Mould Co. W44wcf also did the same and has his design listed also.
To seat my bullet on top of the 40 grains of 2F BP I have to compress the charge .31 and it loads great.
I have used both Starline and R-P cases to date.
I fired these loads this past week end at a SASS match and after the first stage it was only the RO and myself in the firing area. The other shooters all went away.
The spotters were peeking through windows and door ways.
They said the tin roofs were lifting at each shot, that I don't know but I sure had myself a good time. Later David

What he said  

I took a spare die I had and cut the end off the shaft. Made a nice compression die without spending the $$$. Fits nicely in the 44-40 case. Works with the 45 as well. With the 44-40 I can use 35gr of Swiss 2f in solid head cases and 40gr Swiss 2f in balloon head cases by compressing with the bullet without damaging the bullet. Using more than 35gr in the solid head cases, I compress with the die. That's the Lyman 427098 and Fairshake's bullet. The harder the lead the less likely of damage but we all know BP likes softer lead. On a side note, I did have a few solid head cases that I used 40gr compressed with a die and they would not chamber. Maybe the cases bulged a little or something happened at the bottle neck. I have yet to check why...they are still sitting on my shelf.

I think I said this above but don't remember. In the balloon head cases I can fit 40gr by volume of Swiss 2F, tap the case to settle the powder and it takes .20 compression to seat the Lyman 427098 or Fairshake's bullet. With the solid head cases, 35-38gr for a .20 compression. I can't remember exactly now but I think with my lead I get a .4285 210gr bullet with the lyman 427098 and I think Fairshakes' bullet was 210gr but sized at .429! Fairshake can correct me there if I am wrong.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

More Powder!!

I love to see the onlookers scurry away from the shooter!