44-40 Head space

[IRON JACK]

My 1999 1860 uberti has about .018 clearance between bolt and cartridge head. The rim thickness is .056 on my starline cases.

I know this gun isn't wore out as there was no indication of the rifle ever being fired at all. No mark on hammer where it hits the fireing pin , but now after 100 rnds through it you can clearly see an indentation on the hammer. The lifter had no shinny mark where the lever contacts it. I've had it all apart and I believe it's just like it left the factory. All the ammo I have fired is with starting load, very weak and slow just fire forming cases.

Any Idea?

Thanks Jack

[Joe Lansing]

    This wil probably not be a problem with the low pressure 44-40. WW2 Jap Arisakas and later Indian 7.62 Ishapore Enfields are notorious for "loose" headspace. The trick is not to fatigue the cases. The military brass was not meant to be reloaded and the rifles were "loose" to better handle dirt.
    Dedicate your brass to be used only in that rifle, and reload it NECK SIZING ONLY. Inspect and discard fired cases showing signs of weakness (stretching or cracking).  Don't load hot and you should not experience problems.

                                                    JL

[IRON JACK]

Thanks Joe, I just found this on the net and looks like what I and many others probably have is min. rim thickness and max headspace which are all in spec but on the high side.

Cartridge        Case Rim Thickness              Case Head Clearance      Headspace Gauge Rim WIdth
45 Colt           .049 min/.060 max                .006                             .062 (go)  .067 (no go)
44-40             .055 min/.065 max                .006                             .067 (go)  .072 (no go)
44 Special       .049 min/.060 max                .006                             .062 (go)  .067 (no go)   
38-40             .055 min/.065 max                .006                             .067 (go)  .072 (no go) 
38 Special       .048 min/.059 max                .006                             .060 (go)  .066 (no go)
357 Magnum   .049 min/.060 max                .006                             .060 (go)  .067 (no go)
32-20             .055 min/.065max                 .006                             .067 (go)  .072 (no go)

[Trailrider]

If you subtract the MINIMUM cartridge dimension from the NO GO dimension for .44-40 you get .017".  At .018" you are only about .002" over the maximum (allowing an extra .001" from the NO GO dimension).  In point of fact, the NO GO gage is the maximum allowable when a gunsmith is putting on a new barrel.  There is another gage available for some cartridges such as the .30-06, called a FIELD gage.  A rifle that closes on a FIELD gage is to be taken out of service immediately.  Of course, with the .30-06, the main concern with a rifle that accepted a NO GO gage but not a FIELD GAGE would be the effect of the excessive headspace (over GO) on ammo.  For the military, which didn't reload (except for practice ammo), this made little difference.  For a reloader, the story is different.  Excessive headspace is more of a concern with a sharply bottlenecked case as the impact of the firing pin drives the case forward against the front of the chamber, and the pressure then forces the head back, stretching the case.  At the extreme this can result in head separations, which, with high pressure cartridges can result in cases stuck in the chamber to destruction of the gun!

With the .44-40's relatively low pressures and rather gentle taper, rather than a sharply bottlenecked shape, this is less of a problem. (NOT zero, but less.)  Brass in .44-40 is generally thinner, however.

The best thing to do is watch for head separations on the FIRST FIRING.  After that, as was suggested, the thing to do is back off your sizer die until the rounds will chamber with just a little "feel".   Hopefully such ammo will still chamber in your pistols (presuming you use pistols with the same chambering).

[IRON JACK]

Thanks Trailrider,

I'm referring to an 1866 uberti carbine. I've tried backing the die off and that works great. I really love this carbine. It's very accurate and fun to shoot. Just didn't won't to lose it. What brought this to my attension was missfires due to light primer stricks. The firing pin only protruded .029, that added to excess headspace the firing pin didn't have a chance .I have fixed the firing issue ,Now it time to shoot some more and see if anything developes.

Thanks again.

[IRON JACK]

PS

does anyone know which brand of brass usually has thicker rim?
Thanks

[Pettifogger]

All U.S. made brass are supposed to be made within "SAAMI" specs.  However, a lot of people have found that Remington has the thickest rims.

[Trailrider]

I haven't used Remington .44-40 brass in years, so this might NOT be current information: In my experience Remington .44-40 brass not only has the thickest rims, but also the thickest walls and are a bit harder than Winchester or Starline brass. The thicker walls at the neck of the Remington brass might only be a problem if you shoot .430" diameter bullets and the chamber is tight.  You just have to try different things and see what works best.  The .44-40 is a great cartridge.  Too bad the bullet, cartridge, and chamber specs were never standardized to tighter tolerances, and the modern manufacturers had something better to adhere to.

[Coffinmaker]

The actual optimum head space in a toggle link rifle is .004 between the case head and breach face of the breach block.  If your's is .018, your not going to come close with different case manufacturers.  You actually need a new set of links.  Years ago, Uberti had links of differing lengths (back if the 90's) but don't any more.
Unless you can find a custom machine shop to make you a new set of longer links, is to short stroke the rifle and have the maker of your link sets provide a long set of links.  Cowboys and Indian Store, Pioneer Gunworks and The Ottaway Smith can provide kits with longer links.
The other expensive solution is to have the barrel set back.
Take yer pick.

Coffinmaker

[IRON JACK]

Thanks for all the help,

I am a machinist and have built several rifles over the years and can make the links  or set the barrel back if necessary, but for now it looks like letting it headspace on the shoulder is going to work just fine.

Jack

[IRON JACK]

I fixed the head space issue.

Made a fixture consisting of 2   1/2" diameter rods about 2" long welded to a V spring(1/8" X 1" flat bar) (one at each end of the V) . Put the V spring in a machine vice on the mill, heated the forward part of each link to a low red head and squeezed them , one at a time between the 2 1/2" rods using a dial indicator to measure vise movement to get them both the same. it worked great as I stretched both links .013 each.

The link material is very tough metal. If it were only 1/4 as strong as it is it would still be plenty strong.

[Joe Lansing]

    I'm glad you were able to solve your problem. Another solution might be to build up the bolt face. Many years ago I soldered a shim onto the bolt face of a 32-40 Marlin. It worked great, but I got rid of  the rifle anyway because the bore was thoroughly shot out. Building up could also be accomplished by welding and re-machining. 

                                                                          JL

[IRON JACK]

JL, I considered soldering a shim on the bolt face but that would have left the dog on the bottom of the bolt face to short to support the case head and cause problems with ejection. I think that little dog could have been a little longer any way.

I shot it about 20 times yesterday and it functions perfectly now.

I really love this little carbine, It's a lot like shooting a .22 cal with a lot more punch.