Somewhat Better with (All Is Not Well) My Original 56-50

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

I took my Spencer Carbine serial #35110 to test fire it this afternoon.  Not a successful outing  The lever worked fine and the first of three different bullets moved from the magazine to the chamber, just fine.

The problem was two of the cartridges would not go all the way into the Breech.  My Ten-X 56-50 wouldn't slide in all the way and about 1/4" was sticking out and any prodding by me using the lever didn't help.  


A second cartridge, a home load 56-50 also stuck out the same distance.  Both of these cartridges were made with Starline (56-50) Brass.


The 3rd cartridge was made using Bell 50-70 Brass. The Bell cartridge stuck out even more, a good inch or so.


The only cartridge to go all the way into the breech was the blank brass I have been using.


The serial #s on the receiver and barrel match.  I have checked out the barrel for any blockage or lead build up but don't see anything to cause the brass insert restriction.  Any thoughts?

Two Flints  (BTW) my other original Spencer fired the Bell cartridges just fine!?

[Herbert]

Take the decaping pin out of your full lenth sizer and run loaded cartridges through,then try them for fit,somtimes when a larger bullet is seated (especialy in cut down 50-70 cases)it can expand the case to be over sized this will stop it entering the chamber all the way,so just runing the loaded case through the full lenth sizer will put the cartridge back to proper spects,if it does not fit after this you have a obstruction in the chamber,but going by your photos it is a sizing problem

[SGT John Chapman]

Might find a reamer to touch it with but $150 is a little pricy for a maybe....

[Major 2]

Blanks load ?  loaded cartridges will not...built up carbon ?

I'm sure you've checked and cleaned it ...just asking 

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

I took my troublesome Spencer to my shooting spot early this afternoon.  I spent an hour or so cleaning the barrel and trying to remove any build up of lead or debris that I might have missed before.

I took a dummy round I had made up - Starline 56-50 brass, bullet, but no powder or primer - and loaded it through the magazine working the lever as I normally would.  It chambered all the way  

I then loaded a Ten-X 56-50 black powder cartridge though the magazine, and worked the lever and it also loaded OK, as did a fully loaded 56-50 Starline Cartridge.

I took the Spencer to my firing spot and successfully fired 4 cartridges, although ejecting the spent cases was not as smooth as I would have liked.

The only loaded cartridge that would not chamber was the cartridge made with a bell 50-70 case, it still would not go in all the way.

During the initial shooting of both original Spencers, I used a homemade shooting vice.  It holds the Spencer in place securely, and allows me to pull the trigger from a safe distance.

Two Flints

[Herbert]

Have you measured the base of the 50-70 cases,I had some 50-70 brass that was slitly oversized to fit in my original spencer,I had to Put them in the laith and polish some brass off before they would fit properly,did you resize the other cartridges that would not fit

[Two Flints]

Herbert,

Thanks for adding more info to your first post.  I did not resize the cartridges that would not fit into the breech that I showed in the photos.  I'm really a novice at reloading, and I was concerned with the safety aspect of doing what you suggested.

Yes, I did measure the 50-70 cases and they were oversized compared to the Starline 56-50 brass  But, they did fit into the other original Spencer I have and fired just fine, but not in this particular original Spencer.

Two Flints

[Herbert]

Re sizing after the cartridge is loaded is comon practice with black powder cartridges were the powder is compresed or were healed base bullets are yoused and is perfectly safe,or I would never had recomended it, and it ensures proper feeding when reliability is important.All so if you anneal your cases this oftern improves extraction as well as other benifits.eg:stops brass from springing back after sizing and improves gass seal so your brass and chamber will stay cleaner

[DJ]

You should also measure the neck diameter of the difficult round--as Herbert indicates, rifles of this era often used heeled bullets--the portion of the bullet that was outside the case would usually be at least bore diameter and often close to groove diameter.  The diameter of the case neck would be about the same diameter as the major (largest) diameter of the bullet.  Necessarily, the diameter of the part of the bullet that was inside the case (the heel) had to be smaller by approximately twice the thickness of the brass at the neck (roughly .020" and could be much more on cut-down cases such as .50-70).  A rifle with a groove diameter of, say, .535 might use a bullet with a heel approximately .515 in diameter.

Modern cast bullet wisdom, based mostly on more or less modern calibers using smokeless powders, advocates use of a bullet of groove diameter or a thousandth or two over (.359 bullet in a .357 bore is a common example).  This works in modern chambers, because they are arranged so that the part of the chamber the case fits into is actually larger than groove diameter so the case can accommodate a groove diameter bullet.  But that doesn't work quite so well in chambers originally designed for heeled bullet cartridges.  If one loads a groove diameter bullet in the case, the neck frequently has to be expanded so much that it won't fit in the chamber, which may be the problem with your gun.  One solution, as Herbert suggests, is to size the neck of the case after the bullet is seated.  This can work if done carefully, but can be hit-or-miss.  Such resizing squeezes the brass case neck to a smaller size while swaging the lead bullet smaller.  When taken out of the sizer die, the brass springs back slightly, while the lead for the most part does not.  This can lead to loose/falling out bullets if sized too much.  Another solution is to use a smaller, soft bullet that is bore diameter when loaded and that bumps up on firing.  And, of course, there is a pretty good availability of heeled bullet moulds now.

Back to your situation, I suspect the necks are maximum diameter so as to use a non-heeled bullet that at least approaches groove diameter.  And you may have a minimum or even undersized chamber on your rifle.  If you don't shoot much, you could probably reduce cartridges so they work using a sizing die.  If you're going to shoot it a lot, I'd go with a heeled bullet mould--it is sooooo much easier.

[Jan Buchwald]

I have been using shortened 50-70 starline. When you shorten theese, you get fairly close to the "thicker" part of the case. Using LEE reloading tools, I have had to grind a litlle of the sides of the neck expander at the tip, or the cases would bulge (where they begin to get thick)

[Arizona Trooper]

Here are a few ideas.

Make up a dummy round using the case and bullet that won't chamber and smoke the outside of it. Machinist's blue will work too. When you chamber the dummy, the point where it is hanging up will be plainly visible. 

Trapdoor rifles occasionally will have a case neck separate and jam in the chamber, which can cause the problem you are experiencing. It's pretty uncommon but can be hard to get out.

I have experienced two Spencers with gouges in the chamber from someone using a screwdriver or chisel to get out a case body after the head separated. Both would not fully chamber a round and both were successfully fixed with jeweler's files.  Luckily, the places you can reach with a chisel are the same places you can reach with a file.

While on the subject of files, if your Spencer has been dry fired a lot, it can develop a bulge in the right side of the chamber where the firing pin/slide hits. This will cause exactly the problem you are having. Again, jeweler's files to the rescue.

The comments on 50-70 brass are correct. You can size cut down 50-70s in a 50-70 die, then neck ream with a 33/64" reamer. (MSC has them. A ball end or radiused end works best, but those can be hard to find, and expensive. Alternately, using a dremel, put a bit of radius on the end of cutting flutes.) This will solve the chambering issue if it is due to an oversize case neck. it will also reduce blowback through the action quite a bit.

Bell brass tends to have big rims. Every one I have cut down has needed the rim turned down to 0.65". You can do it with a file, but it's pretty tedious. Watching old westerns on the TV makes the time go faster.

Good luck!

[PvtGreg]

Trooper - thanks for this post.

What you said triggered an issue I had on a not related topic - the use of brass .32 ga shot shells for the armi-sport.  They have the same rim issue you mentioned, even after running them all the way up a re-sizing die.

One of my long term projects is to create some sort of jig to file down the rims using a dremel tool and a sanding drum.  Hand sanding is the pits.  I did three that way and quit.

[minerotago]

I dont know if this helps but I tried to lever some original copper rimfire Spencer cartridges in to my carbine and they would not go in without some monstering and I discovered that the rimfire firing pin has been dry fired onto the side of the breech sometime back in  the dark ages of the rifles life with the result that the breech has been burred slightly where the firing pin has struck thus causing a bruise which inhibits the cartridges easy entry.