Prep to dyeing leather black? Help/advice?

[bedbugbilly]

A quick question . . .  I have a special order for a customer (very small holster and plain belt to carry it) that they want dyed black.  I picked up a small container of the "Gel Flow" dye from Tandy in black to use (I never dye anything black and this is the first request I've had).  In the back of my mind, I'm recalling from a class I took that you are supposed to do something to the leather before you use black dye???  I've gone through my notes and can't find anything on it.  Am I recalling correctly or just getting senile?  I'm not referring to using a cleaner on the leather but rather perhaps dying it a different color before you apply the black dye?  If I'm getting "senile" . . . just tell me, I won't be offended in the least!  Thanks pards!   

[Chuck 100 yd]

So far all I have used is Febings Professional oil die to do black. No prep,just put it on clean leather.
No problems yet. 

[bedbugbilly]

After I posted this, I did some googling and came across one article in reference to dyeing leather which stated that prior to dyeing leather black, it should be dyed blue first.  I think that this was what I was trying to recall.  I'm going to use the "eco-flo - gel antique" black that Tandy sells so if anyone has experience with that, I'd appreciate hearing about it.  I will of course try it first on a scrap to see what it does, but I usually use their eco-flo in med. brown and tan and have had pretty good luck with it.  I figured that since it was made for dyeing leather, it would be the safest and easiest bet to get the dyeing job done.

Years ago, when I was making cartridge boxes for Rev. War and Civil War - a friend of mine who was a sutler and who made Civil War leather goods - belts, cartridge boxes, cap boxes and brogans - put me on to using plain old latex black paint for dyeing them black.  I have to admit that it did an excellent job, it soaked in and dried well.  I used some of these items dyed this way for a number of years and they wore very well.  I even used it for coating some haversacks and "poor boy" hunting pouches constructed from light weight canvas.  It gave the desired look, was a flexible finish and soaked in well and for the most part, seemed to be fairly water-proof.  (At least my food stayed dry in the haversacks when I got caught in a rainstorm a few times as well as hunting in snowy weather.

Thanks again for posting any info - greatly appreciated.   

[GunClick Rick]

I a;ways just used shoe dye and it has a bluehue to it when it dries.I let it set the wpe it down woth nutral shoe polsih.I never noticed it coming off later,but it was just for myself not a cutomer.

[bedbugbilly]

I tried the dye on the holster today and it worked fine.  It's a small holster for a unmentionable little semi-auto.  I applied one coat with a swab and then used a small piece of terrycloth towel to rub it in.  The first coat blackened it up but there was some of the leather showing trough.  The customer wanted it to be solid black so after letting it dry for a couple of hours, I applied a second coat, let it set for a few minutes and then rubbed it in and picked up the excess with terrycloth again.  Just thought I'd pass on my experience with this if anyone else is considering the "eco-flo" black.  Actually, I have to admit that it pretty much "worked" like the black latex paint that I used to use.   

[Trailrider]

My experience (about 45 years worth) has been strictly with Fiebing's alcohol-based dyes.  Black has always been problematic, as it mainly consists of carbon black suspended in some medium, in this case alcohol.  Until about 35-40 years ago, black dyes had xylene and toluene.  The toluene (and probably the xylene) was/is carcinogenic, so the gubmint made the manufactures take the stuff out.  The result, however, was to make the dye less color-fast.  The danged stuff would often rub off all over everything! 

I found that I got around this by mixing Fiebing's Black (NOT USMC Black...and they ARE different dyes by stock number) with Tan in a 50/50 mix.  I let it dry thoroughly, applying more dye if I need a deeper black.  Once the holster or belt is dry for a couple of days, I then treat the leather with Fiebing's Bag-Kote.  That seems to fix the black color, and I get no complaints from customers.

[Boothill Bob]

BBB.... This is something I would recommend if you want a deep black color .. then I tested it I dont use anything else..

1) Black: VINEGAR BLACK (aka Vinegaroon - these are original old formulas)
For giving color to the grain of leather there is no blacking that will at all compare with the well known vinegar black. This may be made in various ways. The simplest, and, without doubt, the best, is to procure shavings from an iron turner and cover them with pure cider vinegar; heat up and set aside for a week or two, then heat again and set in a cool place for two weeks; pour off the vinegar, allow it to stand for a few days, and draw off and cork up in bottles. This will keep for a long time, and, while producing a deep black on leather, will not stain the hands.
Another method is to cover iron scraps with sour beer, and allow them to stand for a month or more; then strain off the beer and bottle as before.
A third method is to boil sulphate of iron in vinegar; mix some brewer's yeast with beer and allow it to stand for twenty four hours, then skim off the yeast and add the vinegar.

Instead of iron shavings you can use steel wool. To use the steel wool burn off the oil first - I dip it in acetone and use a propane/blow torch and light it off in an old pan with a lid, just in case you need to put the flame out. Take all precautions and it will work fine. The only problem with steel wool is it often has copper and other metals in the "mix" which can sometimes add a greenish tint.

After the "dye" (actually it's a reagent) dries I then neutralize with a slurry of baking soda and room temp water, about a 1/2 cup baking soda to a quart of water. Then I let the leather dry until just damp and apply a light coat or two of oil (I generally use olive oil, Lexol, Conditioner, or Lexol non-greasy Neats Foot). When the "dye" first dries it may look bluish or grayish at first and sometimes a second coat is needed, but normally the neutralizing and oil will turn it black.

[rickk]

Fiebing's DYE-PREP will help the dye penetrate deeper and leave less of the carbon black (or whatever that black crusty stuff is) on the surface and move it into the leather.

I usually apply the first coat of dye before the dye prep has completely evaporated. Not only does it remove any wax from the leather surface, it also seems to wet the leather pores and make it easier for the dye to soak in.

A second coat of dye is usually needed to eliminate any blotchiness from the parts that don't take the dye as easily as the rest. For lighter colors I dilute my die with acetone so that I can get two coats on without it being too dark.

I let the dye set at least a day. Once the dye is completely dry and the item is finished I apply one or more coats of Resolene diluted with water, Multiple coats make for a glossy finish, a single coat protects but does not add much gloss. The water dilution helps spread it out better and it is less likely to be splotchy or overly shiny in the case of a single coat. I don't actually mix up a diluted batch... I take a paper towel, first dampen it with water, and then I pour a little Resolene into the damp paper towel.

I condition and waterproof the item with a couple off applications neatsfoot oil. The neatsfoot oil soaks though the Resolene somehow. It is not abnormal at this point for the surface to look a bit non-uniform, especially with colors other than black. A couple days later and the color smooths out. I always assumed (but do not know) that the neatsfoot oil allows the dye particles to distribute themselves a bit and even things out.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

BBB.... This is something I would recommend if you want a deep black color .. then I tested it I dont use anything else..

1) Black: VINEGAR BLACK (aka Vinegaroon - these are original old formulas)
For giving color to the grain of leather there is no blacking that will at all compare with the well known vinegar black. This may be made in various ways. The simplest, and, without doubt, the best, is to procure shavings from an iron turner and cover them with pure cider vinegar; heat up and set aside for a week or two, then heat again and set in a cool place for two weeks; pour off the vinegar, allow it to stand for a few days, and draw off and cork up in bottles. This will keep for a long time, and, while producing a deep black on leather, will not stain the hands.
Another method is to cover iron scraps with sour beer, and allow them to stand for a month or more; then strain off the beer and bottle as before.
A third method is to boil sulphate of iron in vinegar; mix some brewer's yeast with beer and allow it to stand for twenty four hours, then skim off the yeast and add the vinegar.

Instead of iron shavings you can use steel wool. To use the steel wool burn off the oil first - I dip it in acetone and use a propane/blow torch and light it off in an old pan with a lid, just in case you need to put the flame out. Take all precautions and it will work fine. The only problem with steel wool is it often has copper and other metals in the "mix" which can sometimes add a greenish tint.

After the "dye" (actually it's a reagent) dries I then neutralize with a slurry of baking soda and room temp water, about a 1/2 cup baking soda to a quart of water. Then I let the leather dry until just damp and apply a light coat or two of oil (I generally use olive oil, Lexol, Conditioner, or Lexol non-greasy Neats Foot). When the "dye" first dries it may look bluish or grayish at first and sometimes a second coat is needed, but normally the neutralizing and oil will turn it black.

Good information Bob, I would like to add one thing, after you have dyed your leather in the Vinegaroon, and after you have neutralized the the dye with a slurry of 1/2 cup of Baking Soda to a Quart of Water, you want to rinse all the baking soda off your leather with fresh water, any baking soda left on the leather will COOK the leather and do damage to it by drying it out . it only takes seconds and minutes to cook and burn leather with baking soda, so be careful when using it, and be sure to RINSE after using it

                  tEN wOLVES

[Boothill Bob]

Tanxs for adding that TW.. I dident know that..

[Dalton Masterson]

I use a royal blue dye on my leather before using the black. It seems to give it a little deeper black.
The flapped holster I did last month is an example of that. I dye the whole thing blue, then go right back over it with black, which covers very nicely as the leather is damp from the blue dye.

I did a pair of holsters a few years back in black. One was just using black dye, and the other was using blue, then black. The just black one seemed to be a little cloudy and chalky looking. The blued one looked much "blacker" if that is possible.

Now, the vinagaroon is a nice dye, but I have only used it on a few projects. I need to make some more....
DM

[JD Alan]

Another option is to use drum dyed leather when you have a black project. That way you don't have to worry about getting it black enough or it rubbing off.

WC turned me on to that and I bought a piece of black drum dyed leather from his Tandy connetion in Fresno, I think. Nice people; they shipped a piece out to me that really looked nice at a reasonable price.

If interested talk to WC or Sandi at Standing Bear's Trading Post in Reseda, CA.

[Dalton Masterson]

Hey JD, Is it black all the way through?
DM

[rickk]

Drum dyed leather is dyed on a rotating drum filled with dye. If done properly, the dye soaks completely through. This means that when you cut it, the edges are already dyed. Some edge dye after finishing the edge makes the edge finish smoother.

[JD Alan]

Yes it is Dalton, and the piece I received was really nice, very smooth and consistent. It was 8-10 if I remember correctly, a double shoulder I believe. WC uses the same stuff and pointed me in the right direction. I remember thinking the shipping was fast and reasonable.

[Massive]

Bob, when you mentioned an iron turner did you mean iron or steel?  Iron is somewhat rare these days, what with scrap and many types no longer made.  Though if i had to I could get it.  Of course the machines are made of it.  The other thing is it doesn't turn nicely for the most part, and most turning will involve a lot of oil to reduce the friction.  So it should be rather oily.

Has anyone tried spraying the vinegaroon?

[Arizona Cattleman]

Tandy just came out with a new water based dye that works really great.  No dye transfer when dry, and a great black color.  They also have two finishes to go on top. a semi gloss and a true flat finish.  Both of which can be buffed for 2 more different levels of shine.  Comes in other colors and can be mixed for different shades.    I was impresed with the fact there is no dye transfer.

Check it out the next time you are in a store.

AC

[bedbugbilly]

Arizona Cattleman - thanks for the information on the new dye.  Since I posted the original post, I've pretty much used "vinegaroon" with great results - just wished it didn't take so blamed long to "air" the vinegar smell out!  The next time I get up to Tucson to Tandy, I'll pick up some of what you're talking about and give it a try.  If nothing more, I can use it for "touch up" when I need it.

I haven't been on the board as I've been in Mich. for the summer - am now back in AZ and just got back to my leather bench here today.  What can I say other than it's great to be back to the "frontier"!   

Thanks for the information - is greatly appreciated!

[WaddWatsonEllis]

WC and the Standing Bear Trading Post ... gotta agree with JD on this ...

I bought a side of black leather from him ... made two holsters, two belts and a knife sheath ... then just last springI made some buckleless spur straps and cowboy cuffs with the same leather ... suffice it to say that if there were any layers that the dye had not penetrated, I would have found them ...





And his website is:

http://sbearstradingpost.com/