BP and nickle plating

[Flinch Morningwood]

I am considering having my pistols nickle plated this winter for several reasons:

   (1) I think it looks pretty cool
   (2) It is supposed to be more resistant to the the effects of BP
   (3) I have heard it is easier to clean
   (4) I think it looks pretty cool...

Has anyone had this done?  If so, what did you think and who did you have do it?

Thanks!

[wildman1]

If thats what ya want ya should do it. I prefer blued myself. My SO has a pair of 32 H&R Mags in stainless. WM

[Lefty Dude]

Not a good idea with BP. The cylinder face will start flaking with constant BP use.

I have a shooting Pard who has a pair of nickel Colts. They were returned to Colt twice for a replate job under warrantee.

Finally, Colt suggested a different finish. They suggested industrial Hard Chrome. ( Seems the CAS/SASS mounted shooter's prefer this finish because it is durable and they shoot BP blanks). The Pair now are hard Chromed and no more problems with the flakey nickel finish.

Industrial hard chrome is as good as stainless, some say.

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[Harley Starr]

Not a good idea with BP. The cylinder face will start flaking with constant BP use.

I have a shooting Pard who has a pair of nickel Colts. They were returned to Colt twice for a replate job under warrantee.

Finally, Colt suggested a different finish. They suggested industrial Hard Chrome. ( Seems the CAS/SASS mounted shooter's prefer this finish because it is durable and they shoot BP blanks). The Pair now are hard Chromed and no more problems with the flakey nickel finish.

Industrial hard chrome is as good as stainless, some say.

I'll keep that in mind.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I'm sure Lefty has the most modern information.  Hard chrome IS tough.

Looking back in history ...
Back when Black Powder was the ONLY game in town, MANY guns were nickle-plated because of nickle's resistance to the corrosive action caused by the firing residue and moisture.  (BP residue isn't particularly corrosive, contrary to what so many "know;" rather it's the residue actually attracting moisture right against the metal - and we all DO know that steel/iron + water = rust, and rust = corrosion.)  And the way I hear it, the residue can actually HIDE the rust/corrosion under it so it can't be seen as damage until it's thoroughly cleaned, or a very long time has passed.

However, if a gun isn't prepared correctly or thoroughly, the plating can and will begin to deteriorate.  I think (I'm not a metallurgist) that eventually, ALL plating will begin to flake off.  Eventually is the keyword here.  Hard chrome probably takes longer than nickle, providing BOTH are prepared correctly before the plating process.

I really wish my 1871/2 Open Top was nickle plated; Cimarron told me it was available ... for $200 extra and an 8-12 week (minimum) wait.  I don't know if Uberti doesn't ship plated guns or what - they offer it.  It must be that the wait time from Italy is terrible, so they have it done here in the States, rather than TRYING to get plated guns ordered and shipped from the factory.

[Abilene]

Cimarron started having most of their nickle plating done in the states for several reasons.  One is that the quality of Uberti's plating varies quite a bit.  A fair percentage of guns had the plating flake and needed to be replated in the states.  Cimarron uses Ford Plating in Florida who do a very good job.  Another reason is waiting time.  A gun that is in stock can be plated in the states and shipped to a customer much quicker than ordering the nickled gun from Uberti and waiting on that.  They keep a few nickled guns in stock because they are in high demand, such as 45LC Model P's for example.  But other than that, there are so dang many models and variations on those models that it makes sense to just have the gun plated only after it is ordered that way.  That is the same reason they now have antique finish and charcoal blue done in the states instead of from Uberti (some rifles are still ordered charcoal blued from Uberti, as disassembling one of those for the finish work is considerably more labor intensive than a pistol).

Now as for Colt, they have had recurring problems with their nickled guns on and off for some time now.  There have been a lot of flaking problems shooting smokeless in them as well as BP.  Some folks say it is because they don't have a copper layer done underneath like they used to, but there is more to it than that.  Ford does not use copper and their work usually holds up.  I would not hesitate to send a gun to them (or some other reliable outfit) for plating and then shoot BP in it.  I don't know if hard chrome can be done as shiny as nickle (the hard chrome Colt's I've seen had a brushed appearance), but if so, then that might be an even better alternative for that appearance.

Back to Little Al's original reasons for having his pistols plated:  regular blued guns hold up to BP just fine.  Nickled guns may be slightly easier to clean simply because the residue shows up well.  And yeah, nickled guns do look cool, so that should be a good enough reason for you by itself 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Thanks for the clarification, Abilene!

I suspected when I ordered the O/T that "availability from Italy" (or maybe more like UN-availability) was the reason that the Cimarron fellow told me that to get a nickle O/T, they'd have it done by Ford Plating.  The $200 seems like a bit much but that is compared to the old prices often quoted.  However, if you look at the cost of a gun now vs. "back then," the pricing is pretty much the same percentage.  (I'm NOT complaining [much], just saying.) 
 

After going to Ford's site, the $200 is a good deal!  Send it yourself = $295!


As you mentioned, I'd say that looks alone is a good enough reason - I KNOW how to clean up my blued guns.  Matter of fact, I only have one nickled gun, a Python from 1982, and that came as labeled as "Electro-less" nickle.  I'm not sure just exactly THAT means, but it wasn't shiny, rather it looked to be brushed.   I had it in storage for almost 8 years (courtesy of the US Army while I was on duty in Germany) and it was wrapped in the brown chemically-treated, anti-rust paper.  After about 6 years, my bud (who had authorization to check my guns) checked everything out to make SURE they were storing well.  He found my Python now had brownish-orange blotches of color everywhere the paper touched the plating!
 
He and my buddy Randy took my Python and set out to fix what they could, since they assumed (correctly) that I'd be heartbroken at ANY damage/nastiness to my prized Python.  (Named Monty, by the way)  They started trying to remove the stains with Simichrome polish.  Several hours later, after sweating profusely and using an entire container of Simichrome, the stains were gone!  However, where the stains were on the barrel, cylinder and triggerguard, was now a bright, beautifully polished nickle finish.  It now has a very interesting 2-tone finish, 'tho it now is primarily shiny and no longer has most of the matte finish it came with.  Some areas a bright & shiny, others are more subdued.  It turned out beautifully, thank God!  Apparently, after paying extra for the E-less N. finish, Colt chose NOT to polish the finish as they normally would have.  We supplied all the needed elbow grease and I paid extra for it!

LoL!  Thanks, Colt!!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

My S&W New Model Number Three left the factory in 1882 with a nickel plated finish. Then in 1965 it was sent back to the factory and was refinished. In fact the entire gun was gone over with a fine tooth comb and now over 45 years later it still locks up as tight as when it first left the factory. So while I did not have the gun refinished myself, a previous owner did, and S&W did a beautiful job.




(1) I think it looks pretty cool

Yes, a nickle plated gun looks pretty cool.

(2) It is supposed to be more resistant to the the effects of BP

Back in the 19th Century, the blue finish applied to firearms was not as robust as the blue used today. So many guns were given a nickel plated finish as an alternative to blue. In fact, with some models produced by S&W they actually shipped more guns with a nickel plate finish than a blue finish. This was particularly true of some of their pocket pistols. But today's blue is far more robust than the 19th Century blues, and it will stand up just fine to the effects of corrosion. It has already been explained that Black Powder is not as corrosive as many think, so I won't belabor that thought. Suffice it to say, modern blue stands up just fine to Black Powder fouling. Most of my cowboy guns are blue, and I shoot them with Black Powder all the time.


(3) I have heard it is easier to clean

You have heard wrong. This is the same misconception that a lot of shooters have about Stainless being easier to clean than a blued finish. The actual process used to finish the gun, whether it is blued, nickel plated, or Stainless, has nothing to do with how hard it is to clean Black Powder fouling off. What matters is how polished the metal is. If there is any roughness, that gives the fouling something to cling to, and makes it more difficult to get the fouling off. I have shot Black Powder through many blued guns, nickle plated guns, and Stainless guns over the years, and I am hear to tell you that as long as the surface polish is the same, it takes the exact same amount of elbow grease to clean the fouling off.

I do agree that the bright finish of a nickel or Stainless gun will highlight residual fouling that a blued finish might hide. But the blued finish is no more difficult to clean.

(4) I think it looks pretty cool... Grin

I will certainly agree with you there.





As for the cylinder face flaking from constant BP use, why would Black Powder cause that to happen more than Smokeless? The forces involved when a Smokeless round is fired are more violent than Black Powder. If anything, nickel should start flaking off with the more violent effects of Smokeless. The other thing to consider of course is the layer of copper underneath the nickle. Traditionally, steel was always copper plated first because copper adheres better to steel than nickel does. Then the nickel was plated on over the copper. The thing to be aware of with nickel plating is that ammonia will attack copper. So never use a powder solvent that has ammonia in it with a nickel plated gun. The ammonia can seep through minute holes in the plating and then go to work on the underlying copper plate. Given time, the ammonia will degrade the bond of the copper to the steel, and that can cause both the copper and the nickel to flake off. I don't know anything about nickel plating without a copper flash underneath.

In any case, I do not shoot my New Model Number Three at every match, but when I do I make sure to clean it the same day (which is more than I do with my Colts). So far, so good.

I am no expert on nickel plating, but Electroless Nickel plating is plating done without the aide of electricity, hence the name. Electroplating is done by submerging the parts in a bath that conducts electricity. A piece of nickel is connected to one of the wires, I forget which one, the other wire is attached to the parts to be plated. I think. The electric current strips off molecules of nickel (or copper, or whatever you are trying to plate) from the piece of nickel and deposits them on the part being plated.

No electricity is used in Electroless Nickel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroless_nickel_plating

For what it's worth, I worked in the electronics industry for a long time, and we plated a lot of parts. I think I remember that the Electroless Nickel was not as durable as Electroplated Nickel. It's cheaper, that's why it is done.

Anyway, the final finish of any plating is strongly influenced by the underlying surface of the part. If the part is highly polished, so will the plating be. If the part has a matte finish, so will the plating. I suspect the reason the Electroless plating came out highly polished was because your friends polished the dickens out of it.

[Abilene]

Steel Horse, that is interesting about the Python finish.  I have not heard of that before on a Python.  Or maybe I have seen it but assumed it was stainless.  Coincidently, my only nickeled gun is also a Python.  1980-vintage 8" in pristine condition.  I also had a '72-vintage 6" nickeled Python that had a lot of holster wear.   It had copper showing on both sides of the muzzle and the front of the cylinder.  Sadly I had to sell that one.

[Lefty Dude]

The average Shooter will only shoot in a lifetime what we as CAS/SASS shoot in a year. Thus the plating will wear a long time.
Consider I shoot my Revolvers, two matchs a Month with six stages each. That is 1440 rounds a Years per Revolver. And this does not include practice or Major matches,(Winter Range, Annual Club, State or Regional shoots.)

Nickel plating is nice, however I would not consider it to be for continious duty in nature. Colt suggests the Hard Chrome for heavy usage. And Stainless is even better.

For me, I like the Blue & Brass finish. Bling is not for me.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Steel Horse, that is interesting about the Python finish.  I have not heard of that before on a Python.  Or maybe I have seen it but assumed it was stainless.  Coincidently, my only nickeled gun is also a Python.  1980-vintage 8" in pristine condition.  I also had a '72-vintage 6" nickeled Python that had a lot of holster wear.   It had copper showing on both sides of the muzzle and the front of the cylinder.  Sadly I had to sell that one.

    I'd hate to lose my Monty!


My Python has stood the times very well.  It was an Army re-enlistment present to myself.  There is NO flaking whatsoever, no copper showing (probably because of minimum holster or any other wear,) and I wouldn't be surprised if it hasn't been fired at least 5-6 thousand times.  Of that, probably 20%-25% have been full-house 357 loads, the rest being the classic version of a 148 gr. wadcutter being pushed by 3 to 3.5 grs. of Bullseye, or the same bullet powered by 3.5 - 4 grs. of Win 231.  Those are pretty tame loads and VERY accurate.  I have heard of folks needing to send their Python back to Colt's to have it retuned, but I don't know the criteria for needing that.  Mine still locks up (as ONLY a Python will) 100% and I like it that way.

Driftwood, you may be right on.  My pals DID spend a lot of time, sweat, & effort on it!  Since then I have added to the polish job to get it more even looking.  It's not hard to do with a cloth wheel & proper rouge.

 

 

[Mako]

...For what it's worth, I worked in the electronics industry for a long time, and we plated a lot of parts. I think I remember that the Electroless Nickel was not as durable as Electroplated Nickel. It's cheaper, that's why it is done.

Anyway, the final finish of any plating is strongly influenced by the underlying surface of the part. If the part is highly polished, so will the plating be. If the part has a matte finish, so will the plating. I suspect the reason the Electroless plating came out highly polished was because your friends polished the dickens out of it.

Driftwood,
That's a nice Smith, congratulations Driftwood ...

Actually, Electroless is significantly more expensive than Electroplated Nickel.   electroless nickel is less porous and more corrosion resistant, it's also harder and more wear resistant. There are different formulations of electroless nickel and one of the primary alloying elements is phosphorus which make the surface slick and hard.  

You get "bright" electroless with newer baths and if the phosphorus content is at certain levels.  It can vary from a golden color to a grey.  It's not really the polish that determines the "brightness," the smoothness of the finish like any other is determined by the metal polish.

Electroless is a chemical deposition and you don't get flaking like you do with elrectro plated finishes. Electroless is also much more form and contour following, you don't get the "dog boning" or the build up on sharp edges like threads.

There is also another alloy with Boron that is even harder than the phosphorus alloys.

In short Electroless is much more durable, harder, tougher, slicker and less porous than electroplated nickle.

I also forgot to mention you can heat treat it to increase the hardness and toughness after it has been plated.  It is not a high enough heat to affect the heat treatment of the base metals.  In fact you can heat treat it in a regular home oven.  You don't have problems with oxidation while it is being heat treated either.

What everyone said about BP actually being easier on electroplated nickel is very true.  It is the gas abrasion that wears nickel on cylinder faces, barrel extensions, gas rings and top straps.

I have to disagree with you on cleaning, technically the nickel has higher lubricity and a smoother surface finish due to the nature of plating and gives the residue less purchase than on a black oxide or bare metal finish.  You will see carbon and lead/carbon fouling with smokeless powder which gets its adhesion as much on surface area as a mechanical grip.  But, with BP the water lifts most of it off and dissolves the bond with the surface.  It seems just as hard or in some cases harder to clean than blued guns because of the contrast to the fouling.

A blued gun whether shooting BP or smokeless appears to be cleaner earlier than a nickel, hard chrome or stainless weapon.  It's simply a matter of contrast.  You can almost always get more residue off of a "fully cleaned" blued gun if you continue to clean it, you just don't see it and quit.  Even with the remaining residues when you add oil to the surface it just blocks any ill effects and prevents water from getting to the surface or being attracted by the residue.  The guns we think that are 100% residue free, really aren't.  I would venture to say that nickel guns end up being cleaned more completely because they will look dirty when a blued gun won't.   The slight edge in lubricity and surface finish from the nickel also help in the final condition.

Regards,
Mako