Straight Skinney On Cartridge Conversions

[tpelle]

I'm pondering on getting a cartridge conversion for my Pietta Remington NMA.  I've looked at both the Kirst and the Howell web sites, and I have a few questions:

1.  The Kirst Konverter is a five-shot cylinder with an "un-bored" sixth "chamber", and the cylinder is chambered for .45 Colt.  From looking at the pics on the Kirst web site, it appears that the spacing of the chambers is not on even 1/6 intervals around the cylinder - in other words, the blank portion where the sixth chamber would have been if it were there does not appear to be large enough to accept a chamber anyway, if you know what I mean.  This sort of messes with my head!  How does the timing work out when the cylinder has to index through that odd missing chamber?
2.  The Howell conversion cylinder, the one marked OS1858/Pietta .44 Colt, appears to be 6 shot, but I'm curious about that .44 Colt chambering.  According to Wikipedia, this cartridge was available from around 1871 until the 1940's, but is it still available?  Can you still get the brass for it?  Can you make it from .44 Special brass?  Or is the .44 Colt just a typo, and it's really supposed to be .45 Colt?  (I recall seeing a video somewhere where the Howell/R&D cylinder was bored for .45 colt, and that the chambers were actually bored at a slight angle so that the rim of the cartridge would clear the ratchet.)
3.  Howell also lists another conversion cylinder marked OS1858R .45.  It's not clear from their web site, but I gather it's for .45 ACP?
4.  So what caliber is right - .45 or .44?  I thought that a .44 percussion revolver was actually bored so as to work with .45 fixed ammunition.  So how come the Howell conversion is chambered for a .44?
5.  What's really involved in fitting one of these cylinders from either maker?  I gather they are likely NOT a drop-in.  It seems to me that if you "tweak" your revolver to accept a conversion cylinder (Modifying the hand and bolt?) you would be unable to swap your percussion cylinder back in.

Very confused!  So what's the real deal?

[Marshal Deadwood]

Reloading components for the .44 colt are plentiful. I've shot, and loaded for,  only .44 colt in my open top revolvers for a long time now. I love the round.

There are several companies that produce ammo for the .44 colt.

Starline brass is inexpensive and available at most any time from several vendors. I order mine mostly from either Track of the Wolf or Buffalo Arms.

[Cookie]

1) Raven, a regular forum poster, is Walt Kirst's partner and can obviously speak with specifics about the mechanical workings. But, I can say that they have figured out the mechanics of it, and it does work.

2) Deadwood's right,.44 Colt components exist, although I don't know about "plentiful". (At least compared to .38 Spc / .45 Colt) But, in any case, I'd forget using a .44 Colt in a 1858 Remington, unless you had a source for heeled bullets (which is what the .44 Colt originally used). Stick with .45 Colt since the bullet matches the bore. And yes, some of the Howell cylinders are 6-shot, some are 5-shot.

3) No idea, sorry.

4) See #2 above.

5) Both Kirst and Howell conversions are designed to work out the box with no fitting. And yes, that means you can switch between cartridges and percussion at whim. I have 2 conversions and they've worked perfectly out of the box, and still after putting over a thousand rounds through them. And that is the general consensus from everything I've seen.

Rarely there are timing issues that require some factory work, but that is the exception. As long as you match cylinder type to gun manufacturer (ie Pietta cylinder to Pietta gun) you'll be fine.

[Professor Marvel]

Ah My Dear Tpelle -

1.  The Kirst Konverter is a five-shot cylinder.... This sort of messes with my head!  How does the timing work out when the cylinder has to index through that odd missing chamber?

It is handled by a marvelous proprietary mixture of Pixie Dust and Unicorn Snot, which when applied in the correct proportions warps both space and time in such a manner that the timing occurrs before it happens, much like subatomic particles, and further distorts your personal reality so that your eyes are fooled into believing the unbelievable.

(actually Walt Kirst & CO. lengthened a single ratchet of the "star" section so that the timing works correctly. I have two cylinders in .45 Colt for the Pietta Remmy, and they both drop into & work correctly in every pietta remmy I have or have tried them in.

2.  The Howell conversion cylinder...

The 6 shot Howell .45 Colt cylinder, formerly known as the R&D, is in fact bored at a slight angle in order to accomodate the .45 Colt rims. the issues surrounding .44 Colt, heal-based bullets, and componants were addressed by our illustrious previous posters :-)

3.  I too am unsure on the .45 ACP from Howell ...

4.  So what caliber is right - .45 or .44? 

The answer is Yes. Or Both. But not Neither
The Colt and Remington .44 cap and ball revolver barrels are in fact bored and rifled for a .451 - .454 round ball - thus the new .45 Colt cartridge works quite well. as previously mentioned the historically correct .44 Colt used a nominal .45x bullet but in a heal-based design, much like the modern .22 LR

Hopefully someone will a plethora of diagrams, pictures, photos, and 3-d CAD will chime in  shortly with educational material (are you there mako?)

5.  What's really involved in fitting one of these cylinders from either maker?

As stated by others, they are designed to be "drop in" and most often do! Because of manufacturing differences occasionally a revolver does need minor fitting. In these cases such services are easily obtained if one cannot handle it on their own.

I myself am most enamored with the Kirst Cylinders which are supported by Walt Kirst (of course) and our own Hoof Hearted and Raven who post and read here quite regularly. Do a search on this site for their names and you will find a veritable wealth of information from their posts. One or both will undoubtadly drop by shortly :-)

hope this helps
yhs
prof marvel

[Chaparosa]

What's really involved in fitting one of these cylinders from either maker?  I gather they are likely NOT a drop-in

All I can add is that in my experience with 2010 (top) and 2011 (bottom) Pietta 1858s, what is involved is:
1. Remove percussion cylinder;
2. Place Kirst Konverter in revolver;
3. Push cylinder pin back into place.
IOW, the new Konverters are indeed a drop-in with current production guns. Possibly older guns may require some fitting, although I had a 1998 Pietta/Kirst rig ( since lost in a burglary )that was also a drop-in.

[Raven]

The timing on the Kirst 5 shot works because the ratchet is timed for 5 shots and the safety chamber. There is just not enough room in the cylinder to place 6 chambers unless you angle the chambers slightly so that you have rim clearence....This is what R&D's patent is about.
Our solution to the problem was to lower the number of chambers and provide a Safety chamber so that you can leave the hammer down on an empty chamber.

First there is no such thing as "drop in", everyone in the industry says some fitting may be required..........having said that our cylinders will drop into 90+% of Uberti and Pietta revolvers.
The adjustments that may be needed are
1. narrowing the bolt to fit the narrowest notch in the cylinder.
2. Lengthening or shortening the Hand/Pawl.
The percussion cylinder will still work as it has a full ratchet system for the hand/pawl to work against as apposed to a cartridge cylinder that has had much of the ratchet cut away to provide clearence for cartridge case rims.

as for other fitting required .....if it is to be a breach loader you will need to cut the loading groove. Really not very hard to do if you have the tools and trust in yourself. And the percussion cylinder will still work!

We also have 6 shot .44 cylinders for the 1858 Remington


Raven

[Professor Marvel]

The timing on the Kirst 5 shot works because the ratchet is timed for 5 shots and the safety chamber.
Raven

My Dear Raven  -
I still prefer the pixie dust and unicorn snot theory - if the time and space continuum can be warped by Sinter Klaus,
why not by Herr Kirst?

all in fun
prof marvel

[Raven]

My dear Professor,

I too prefer the pixie dust and unicorn snot method of manufacture......but, alas my supply has gone bad. So I have been reduced to engineering

Raven

[Professor Marvel]

My dear Professor,

I too prefer the pixie dust and unicorn snot method of manufacture......but, alas my supply has gone bad. So I have been reduced to engineering

Raven

Ah My Dear Raven -

Indeed, stocks and new sources of exotic and esoteric supplies are in fact dwindling!

However you do have the added advantage that "engineering methods" are reliably repeatable, and your handwork is, to turn a phrase, "to die for" .

in all sincerity,
yhs
prof marvel

[Slowhand Bob]

Am I to assume that when the various patents expire we will see a six chambered .45Colt cylinder utilizing a square bottomed single firing pin cylinder plate?  Patents do not last forever and I figure someone is just waiting, kinda like the old S&W bored through patent.  Im thinking this would even be cheaper than pixie dust or ground unicorn horn and would make those shooters happy who have never been able to get their minds wrapped around a five shot six shooter.  Lets face it, one extra chamber kept Howell in the game long after he lost his imagination.

[Danny Bear Claw]

Mine is an older Uberti '58 with an R&D cylinder.  Dropped right in and works perfectly.  I got no complaints.   
Chaparosa... very nice pair of Remmy-converts you got there!  I really like the shorter one.   

[Pay Dirt Norvelle]

I'm beginning to look for conversion cylinders for my two Euroarms 1858 Remingtons.  However, they are a bit on the old side as I have had them since the mid 1980s and just started shooting them for CAS.

[+draw]

I have Kirst Konverters in my .36 "1858"s.  They did drop in and function perfectly when shooting with one hand.  When shooting with two hands, I get an occasional over-rotation.  So some timing work will have to be done.  However, since I only shoot Duelist, I left it alone and have shot this combination for nearly 10 years.

I have .45colt R&D Conversion Cylinders in my .44 "1858"s.  Like Raven said, I had to modify (narrow) the bolt, to fit properly into the cylinder stops.  (on one).  the other gun was fine. 

If you are shooting both Percussion and Cartridge in your guns, you'll have to leave the hammer springs a bit on the heavy side to provide reliable percussion cap ignition, and to prevent the hot cap fragments from falling betwixt the grip and your palm, leaving you "branded".


McC

[Hoof Hearted]

All I can add is that in my experience with 2010 (top) and 2011 (bottom) Pietta 1858s, what is involved is:
1. Remove percussion cylinder;
2. Place Kirst Konverter in revolver;
3. Push cylinder pin back into place.
IOW, the new Konverters are indeed a drop-in with current production guns. Possibly older guns may require some fitting, although I had a 1998 Pietta/Kirst rig ( since lost in a burglary )that was also a drop-in.

HEY...............I think I plated that trigger guard

[Chaparosa]

HEY...............I think I plated that trigger guard

Yep - and did a darned nice job, too!