two questions here, about 357 black powder loads and the colt ring lever rifle

justin22885 · June 10, 2010, 07:30:33 PM

i have two questions.. first question... ive heard its possible to use 38-40 loading data to load..357 cartridges with black powder as sort of a way to have a little extra fun with the revolvers chambered in this newer cartridge, is this true?

second question.. does anyone have any useful information about the colt 1837 ring lever rifle or the model 1839 carbine?... as i like both single action revolvers and lever actions, i thought it would be interesting to own a common ancestor to both...

from what i understand, these are lever action revolving rifles that had a 10 shot black powder cap and ball cylinder in a variety of calibers, an arm to press bullets into the cylinder, a little cutout in the frame to attach nipples to the cylinder... and action of the lever would rotate the cylinder and cock the hammer..

it would be very, very interesting to know if anyone makes a reproduction of this.. and if not it would be interesting to find proper schematics to make a few of these... by law they should be considered a muzzle loading device along with the revolvers?... and who wouldnt want one of those in their collection?

hellgate · June 10, 2010, 08:23:25 PM

Re the .357:
I used to have trouble finding a BP load that would be BOTH accurate and shoot all day. I could get accurate, but need a wet patch pull through after every stage OR I could get all day shooting with a load that grouped 6"@ 50 yds. Along came the Snakebite bullet which WILL shoot all day AND is fairly accurate but it would not reliably feed in both of my Rossi '92s. Marlins don't have that problem of finicky OAL & feeding. So, I have been shooting subs in my rifles and no problems. I now use 3F 777 and a variety of 158gr bullets which give excellent accuracy and will shoot all day without fouling out regardless of the lube. I would recommend you give the Snakebite bullet a try as it was designed and used by Snakebite for use in 38 SPL cases. I don't know that you can get it commercially but must buy a mold and cast your own. It is a six cavity mold so you can cast up 500 in a morning. The BP loads definitely give a more BOOM sound than any of the subs. I don't consider Pyrodex a sub but it does burn a little cleaner than BP in my experience and is just as corrosive if not more so.

Goatlips · June 10, 2010, 11:28:05 PM

What Hellgate said, except I stick with Lidu Black Powder (cheapest) and clean the Rossi and the Rugers whenever I get around to it (they're stainless). Feed great and shoot well enough for my Cowboy needs, maybe better, haven't tried long range. Yay Snakebite!

Goatlips

Sir Charles deMouton-Black · June 11, 2010, 09:54:16 AM

"first question... ive heard its possible to use 38-40 loading data to load..357 cartridges with black powder as sort of a way to have a little extra fun with the revolvers chambered in this newer cartridge, is this true?"

Not true!

The .38-40 is a much different cartridge, and has a much larger capacity, but that is not critical to finding a load for a .357 mag. Just stick to the basics of finding a blackpowder load for any cartridge;

Fill the case to allow from 1/16 in. to 1/8 inch compression when the bullet is seated. After that there is a lengthy list of niceties, like wads, drop tubes, etc. (See THE DARK ARTS, and read a lot.)

Dick Dastardly · June 11, 2010, 10:05:36 AM

1st thing to do is learn what cartridge OAL your gun prefers. Then, charge the cases with Holy Black so that the powder is compressed 1/16" to 1/8" when the bullet is seated and crimped to that length. As already said, the Snakebite Big Lube®LLC bullet is designed to yield .357 Magnum cartridges when seated and crimped in the crimp grove. Your rifle may prefer a slightly different cartridge OAL and you need to learn that before you can get reliable feeding.

Try the gun with some factory .357 Magnum ammo. If it feeds that, measure the OAL and match it when you reload your own ammo.

Good luck,

DD-DLoS

Fairshake · June 20, 2010, 10:19:59 AM

The snakebite's can be purchased from Springfield Slim at his leather site on the net. Look for Whyte's Leather Shop. Click on the accessories pic. Hellgate I don't know what you would call 777 if not a sub. It is a wanna be black powder substitute.

hellgate · June 20, 2010, 08:15:10 PM

Fairshake,
You are so correct. If I implied it isn't a sub then I need to write with more clarity. It's a sub all the way. In fact, I have described it to other shooters as a smokeless powder that smokes.

Fairshake · June 25, 2010, 09:48:31 PM

Well I made a mistake in my post to you and I apologize for that. In your last line you stated that you did not consider Pyrodex a sub. I was paying attention to your talk on 777 and put it where I should have put Pyrodex. I also want to say that I have much respect for you and what you have to say. When I read that you were using 777 that threw me because I was always under the impression that you used the real powder. I guess you have been reading all the articles that Captain Baylor puts out about how good the subs are and how bad the real powder is. He told me that if he wanted to use the real powder he would have to drive to the other side of Houston. I make a 5 hour trip every time I refill my supply. Take Care

Lewie Girardeau · September 05, 2011, 12:52:49 AM

HIYA EVERYONE;

What I would like to know is what will a snakebite boolit ( OR any of the other cast bullits ) do when it hits a white tailed deer?
Lets face it I'm a soldier and money isn't exactly free floating or growing on a tree. ( and our pres. don't care if we get paid for that matter)
I want to get into cas but also have to figure in the freezer portion to any firearm purchase, and well a 45 LC is simply not legal for deer, hence the reason for the 38's.
So, on that note which rifle would hold up the best to the .357 in the fall and be good enough to spit out specials the rest of the year at matches?
And yes I know there have been hundreds of deer and turkey taken with the 44-40 and 45 LC, but these days they put laws on everything!!

BTW... Deployment is over half way over so I'll be shooting soon!!

Thanks,
Lewie

hellgate · September 05, 2011, 09:16:06 AM

I would trade for or buy a handful of factory loaded (higher velocity) 158gr JHPs or some other expanding bullet for deer. The snakebite is a long pointy bullet that is likely to poke a narrow hole through the deer rather than expand unless cast of soft lead.

I have Rossi mod 92s because they are less expensive however they can be finicky about OAL but mine both handle 38SPL & 357 mag. Other folks have not had as good of luck with the 92s and use Marlins that cost more but seem to feed various OALs better.

I'm not sure why a 45LC isn't legal but a 357mag is. Most states have a muzzle or 100yd energy minimum for deer. However I have never looked at the 45 vs 357 comparisons @ 100yds so I don't know. I don't care for the 45LC either. The 38/357 is more economical.

Thank you for daring to serve this country. I'm proud of you for that. Thanks again.

rickk · September 05, 2011, 04:55:55 PM

Some states have weird laws.... in Massachusetts, one can hunt bear with a handgun, but only a .357... no smaller, no bigger.

It's a law... it's not supposed to make sense.

w44wcf · September 06, 2011, 08:15:32 AM

Lewie,
Assuming you will be using b.p...... in my experience, 1,200-1,250 fps is about as fast as you will be able to push the bulllet using FFFG powder. If you make the bullets from pure lead or 50/1 (lead /tin) at the most and use a flat faced seating punch when seating the bullet, you will flatten the nose a bit in compressing the powder.

w44wcf

Driftwood Johnson · September 07, 2011, 08:50:04 AM

Howdy Justin

There were only 200 of the first model Colt Lever Ring Rifle made, and only 500 of the 2nd Model. This means they are extremely rare and extremely valuable. The one I have posted a link to sold for over $31,000! I'm gonna make a wild guess and assume that is beyond your pocketbook. If not, start searching google because there are still a few out there.

http://collectorebooks.com/gregg01/coltrevolver/Lot-462.htm

Here is another one.

http://www.damonmills.com/images/PS%2037/Paterson%20Rifle%203239.htm

No, to my knowledge nobody has ever made a replica of one. At least not as far as I know.

As far as measured drawings, good luck. Actual dimensioned drawings for antique firearms are extremely rare. Most were proprietary information of the companies that made them. What's more, in the time period we are talking about, 1he 1830s, creating dimensioned and toleranced drawings was in its infancy. The techniques used for such drawings had not yet been standardized. Sorry, I don't think you are going to find any drawings for one. There are plenty of much more common firearms that no dimensioned and toleranced drawings exist for. Today, what is often done is an original is measured up and new drawings are made. But a rifle like this would have very limited appeal, and I doubt if enough could be sold to make up for the R&D costs.

QuoteSome states have weird laws.... in Massachusetts, one can hunt bear with a handgun, but only a .357... no smaller, no bigger.

It's a law... it's not supposed to make sense.

Please Rickk, Mass gets a bad enough name as it is. Here is a quote from the Massachusetts Division of Fisheries and Wildlife page regarding hunting black bear.

9. HUNTING IMPLEMENTS:
During the September period of the open season, black bears may be hunted by the following means: (1) a centerfire rifle .23 caliber or larger; (2) a muzzle-loading firearm, .44 to .775 caliber, fired from the shoulder, using a single projectile, (3) a .357 Magnum revolver using .357 Magnum cartridges, or a revolver .40 caliber or larger; or (4) a bow and arrows, 40 lbs. at 28" draw or at peak draw for compound bows, using well-sharpened steel broadhead blades not less than 7/8 in. width.

During the November period of the open season, black bears may be hunted by the following means: (1) a centerfire rifle .23 caliber or larger; (2) a muzzle-loading firearm, .44 to .775 caliber, fired from the shoulder, using a single projectile, or (3) a bow and arrows, 40 lbs. at 28" draw or at peak draw for compound bows, using well-sharpened steel broadhead blades not less than 7/8 in. width.

rickk · September 07, 2011, 10:05:08 AM

Thanks D.J..

I haven't hunted in a few years, so I haven't kept up with changes.

The "revolver 40 caliber or larger" part is new since I last hunted. In fact, it used to just say ".357 caliber" I believe, and not specify "magnum" or "revolver". I suspect the S&W had some influence over that all happening. Now that S&W owns T/C I'm sure it will get appended to include single shots as well.

Rick

Springfield Slim · September 14, 2011, 11:34:33 AM

If you want to run the bullets faster by using a .357 case with more powder capacity there is now a BP 140 grain RNFP BP bullet available from www.whyteleatherworks.com It would probably work better on deer due to the higher velocity and flatter point than a Snakebite. And it will make a good bullet to use the rest of the time at cas matches.

Drayton Calhoun · October 14, 2011, 08:55:46 AM

Quote from: Driftwood Johnson on September 07, 2011, 08:50:04 AM
Howdy Justin

There were only 200 of the first model Colt Lever Ring Rifle made, and only 500 of the 2nd Model. This means they are extremely rare and extremely valuable. The one I have posted a link to sold for over $31,000! I'm gonna make a wild guess and assume that is beyond your pocketbook. If not, start searching google because there are still a few out there.

http://collectorebooks.com/gregg01/coltrevolver/Lot-462.htm

Here is another one.

http://www.damonmills.com/images/PS%2037/Paterson%20Rifle%203239.htm

No, to my knowledge nobody has ever made a replica of one. At least not as far as I know.

As far as measured drawings, good luck. Actual dimensioned drawings for antique firearms are extremely rare. Most were proprietary information of the companies that made them. What's more, in the time period we are talking about, 1he 1830s, creating dimensioned and toleranced drawings was in its infancy. The techniques used for such drawings had not yet been standardized. Sorry, I don't think you are going to find any drawings for one. There are plenty of much more common firearms that no dimensioned and toleranced drawings exist for. Today, what is often done is an original is measured up and new drawings are made. But a rifle like this would have very limited appeal, and I doubt if enough could be sold to make up for the R&D costs.

Please Rickk, Mass gets a bad enough name as it is. Here is a quote from the Massachusetts Division of Fisheries and Wildlife page regarding hunting black bear.

9. HUNTING IMPLEMENTS:
During the September period of the open season, black bears may be hunted by the following means: (1) a centerfire rifle .23 caliber or larger; (2) a muzzle-loading firearm, .44 to .775 caliber, fired from the shoulder, using a single projectile, (3) a .357 Magnum revolver using .357 Magnum cartridges, or a revolver .40 caliber or larger; or (4) a bow and arrows, 40 lbs. at 28" draw or at peak draw for compound bows, using well-sharpened steel broadhead blades not less than 7/8 in. width.

During the November period of the open season, black bears may be hunted by the following means: (1) a centerfire rifle .23 caliber or larger; (2) a muzzle-loading firearm, .44 to .775 caliber, fired from the shoulder, using a single projectile, or (3) a bow and arrows, 40 lbs. at 28" draw or at peak draw for compound bows, using well-sharpened steel broadhead blades not less than 7/8 in. width.

Thanks for the link, it is a sleek looking rifle. Also, interesting roll engraving on the cylinder.