Is My new Bandoleer Legal???

[Bugscuffle]

I'm in the process of designing and making up a shotgun bandoleer. i figured that I might as well look into the rule book and see what thy had to say about it and I found this:
• Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design (e.g., bandoleers must
be loose and not secured in any way to prevent movement). Modern drop pouches, combat
style shotgun loops, wrist or forearm bandoleers, and such are not allowed. Pouches shall
have a flap and must carry their contents loose, with no special provisions to organize the
contents for rapid retrieval."
My design was for a single strand 12 Ga. shotgun bandoleer with a number of two cartridge per unit pouches with flaps that snap down. Is haveing each pouch only hold two cartridges compliant with the rule that the shells be carried loose? Is having the pouches only hold two shells compliant with, "no special provisions to organize the contents for rapid retrieval." I ask becuse I really don't see the difference between a pouch that holds two shells and a loop that holds two shells.

[GunClick Rick]

Tupelo Flash wears one...

http://www.outdoorchannel.com/Personalities/TupeloFlash.aspx

[Arizona Cattleman]

Here is a picture of Tupelo's Bandoler I took at Winter Range Shoot,

AC

[Shotgun Franklin]

I've seen several belt slides built with the shells in pairs like you dscribe. It's not historically correct but then SAA doesn't care about such things.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

A quick email or call to SASS might clear it up for you. I wouldn't think they'd have a problem with what you have in mind but you should check to make sure. Why not just make it with loops and no one will complain. Mine has single loops and when I use it, I load two loops and leave one blank, then two more, etc. It's easy to get them out if you pull them up close to the top of the loops for the stage.

[Slowhand Bob]

Normally when we speak of double pouches, we are referring to the same idea as a double loop but with a closed bottom.  It sounds like you are describing the same thing but with a snap down top flap(?).  Your idea would certainly slow you down and not be a competitive advantage BUT I would do as Marshall Will suggests and ask first.  I am still not sure about understanding the description, it might help if you made a single example of this pouch design on a backer to send them a photo also.

[Bugscuffle]

The pouches that I have in mind are very similar to a magazine pouch with a bottom and a top flap and a snap. It would hold two cartridges. In ordinary circumstances the flap is closed and the snap fastened. All very secure and no dirt or water gets onto the shells (did I mention that I use paper hulls?). In competition the flap on the pouches that you expect to use (usually two of them) are open and tucked in under the shell leaving the base of the cartridge sticking up, open and easily available.  I supose that I could leave the bottom of tbe pouch open, sort of like a very large two cartridge loop and still have a flap and snap, but how would I prevent the shells from slipping too far down into the pouch/loop to get them out in a hurry? Maybe a narrow strip of leather across the bottom? Is that still a pouch or is it now a loop?

[ChuckBurrows]

e.g., bandoleers must be loose and not secured in any way to prevent movement

This means that the bandoleer itself, not it's pouches or cartridges, must be left loose to move i.e. the bandoleer cannot be attached to the waist or gun belt to lock one side down to prevent the bandoleer from rolling or belling out.
I make mine so they can be worn either way and they have all been allowed under the SASS rules. Flaps on the ctg pouches would not be illegal - just slower.......

[Slowhand Bob]

I understand what you are saying now, pretty much what I thought you was talking about.  Chuck provided your complete answer and yes, double or single loops are frequently blocked at the bottom by a thick sewn on leather strip.

[Bugscuffle]

I understand the "not tied down" part. This is the passage that worries me is this one: "Pouches shall
have a flap and must carry their contents loose, with no special provisions to organize the
contents for rapid retrieval." 

[ChuckBurrows]

The comment re: pouches has to do with belt or shoulder pouches not the type you mean albeit some shoots may have their own rules.
If I am correct you are talking about the type of bandollers with a flap over the ctgs similar to the ones used in the early 1900's i.e.
similar to this one on this link http://www.hobbyswoodmilitaria.co.uk/ekmps/shops/hobbyswood/resources/Image/4408g.jpg

if so it should be OK but to make sure contact SASS and have them make the decision and get it in writing.

[Blackey Cole]

IIRC any bandoleer is illegal for actual use in a SASS match as all ammo must be below the shooters belly button level to be legal for use.

[Stu Kettle]

IIRC any bandoleer is illegal for actual use in a SASS match as all ammo must be below the shooters belly button level to be legal for use.

Not really, here are the rules regarding bandoleers:
• Ammunition required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the
shooter's person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotshell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be
safely staged as required by stage instructions.
• Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design (e.g., bandoleers must
be loose and not secured in any way to prevent movement). Modern drop pouches, combat
style shotgun loops, wrist or forearm bandoleers, and such are not allowed. Pouches shall
have a flap and must carry their contents loose, with no special provisions to organize the
contents for rapid retrieval.

here is the often ignored "bellybutton rule":
• Ammo belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.

[Bugscuffle]

I did ask SASS about the pouches on the bandoleer and here is the disappointing answer that i got from a SASS staffer who shall remain nameless.

"Howdy Bugscuffle:
You CAN have a two round cartridge loop with a bottom and a flap on your bandolier.
Just don't call it a pouch."

What he described IS A POUCH and there is no two ways bout it, and in that this is nothing more than asking me to tell an outright lie, I have decided to forego my initial design and build a more conventional bandoleer. To me, what he (the SASS staffer) proposes just aint "the cowboy way". If what I asked about isn't legal, then fine, I'll do something else, but I'm not a politician, I wont lie about it or call it something that it isn't.

[maarty]

Just don't put  a flap on, then it's not a pouch as far as I can tell. It's just a cartridge loop.
There's plenty of shotgun belts and slides around with a cup type closed bottom loop, can't see why they'd be legal but a bandoleer the same wouldn't. 
Another idea would be putting 2 single loops for shotshells then one for a .45-70 then 2 more shotgun and another .45-70 as a way of dividing them into groups of two shells.


I'm no leather worker so I'm not sure how difficult it would be to make loops like that.

[Bugscuffle]

One of the suggestions to my dilemma was to just skip one loop betwee every two loops so that they would have an order that was two shells, blank, two shells blank, etc. I like that idea because I coud use it for either my 311 Stevens SXS or my Win. mod 97 pump. What I don't like is that it doesn't resolve my original problem of keeping my waxed paper hulled shotshells clean and dry. Paper hulls swell up when they get wet (it gets in through the tops I think) and don't fit in the gun anymore and dirt sticks to the wax on the hulls.

[maarty]

Paper shells have a high brass base don't they?
Why not make individual loops the full length of the paper and reasonably tight? That way they protect the paper and still leave the entire brass  free to grasp?

Either that or go to plastics, cause even if you make the pouches you describe once the flap is open at the start of the stage you're going to get some dust and dirt on them and over time dust and dirt will collect on the inside of the loop/pouch.

I think the best solution if you're going to use waxed paper would be to leave your shotshells out of the loops and in a box until you're ready to move out onto the firing line. 
Once the shooter in front of you starts shooting load your loops then  go straight out onto the line.