Another Bullet Loop Thread

[mtgelaude]

Hello everybody,
I am getting ready to make a new rig for my Model Russian, and I am going to do a belt with woven bullet loops.  I do have a few questions to ask you guys before I go ahead and start seriously drawing it out.  This is different than the last few threads I think, if I am wrong, I applolgize    The belt is going to be 3" wide, and about 56" from center hole to buckle.  I am going to use either 8/9 or 9/10 oz leather.  Probably 9/10 oz due to the weight of cartridges, and the width of the belt.
How do you cut the holes that the leather weaves through?  An oblong punch seems like the quickest way, but I do not want to have a hole visible at the top and bottom.  I am going to use 1" leather for the loops.  What size punch would you use to have a tight fit?  I could use a hole punch on both ends and cut out the in between, but would have to worry about being square all the time, your thoughts?
I am going to use 4-5 oz. leather for the loops, is this going to be a problem with the holes being  a little wide for the thickness of leather?  I do not want them to pull through on me all the time.  But I do not want to stretch the heck out of it trying to pull it through the slot.  Should I pre-stretch the leather before I start weaving?  I know that I should start weaving when it is damp, correct?
Now for some opinion questions.  How many loops do you put on a belt?  I am a big guy, so I could go way up in numbers of bullets, but I am thinking of either 30 (6X5=30) or 42.  How many do you guys go with, not to heavy, or to few?  And the last question is placement of the loops.  Do you start with the very back of the belt and work towards the edges, which is what I was thinking of?  What about placement as far as height, dead center on the belt, or a little high?  I like the look of them being a little bit high up on the belt, but I think that to high up could be weird.

[Slowhand Bob]

My best advice would be to use a small piece of scrap belt strap and a short length of loop material to make a test piece containing at least two or three cartridge loops.  You may find that you are over worrying on this task and if not the test piece will give a starting point for problem solving.  

The weights you mention are pretty common for the job you wish to do so any problems will not be related to that.  On the thickness of the leather in relation to the slot width is taken care of by the fact that your cartridge width layout should always be from outside of slot to outside of slot, thus covering any excess width but if you go with a full loop pulled through each slot it is already going to be a tight fit.  With that said you should find that the 4/5oz material fills the slot pretty good on either style of weaving and you do not want to pull it so tight as to cause it to stretch and/or deform the slots.  

A Jerrys Stripper is an extremely useful bench top tool and works particularly well to cut bullet looping material quickly and uniformly.  Any good quality name brand slot punch should measure pretty much within its rated size and do a good job.  Though they are no longer sold, the Rapine punches were much better quality than they appeared and seemed to me to cut a lightly narrower slot?  At any rate I feel reasonably sure that the common method would be to match the punch slot length to the 1" loop material you plan to use and they usually turn out pretty well if your pattern layout is right.

[ChuckBurrows]

I use a standard CS Osborne 1" bag (oblong) punch for the slots and for 44-45 caliber I space the slos 5/8" apart. I make my loops from 3/4 oz and cut them 1 1/16" wide which with the bit of stretch fills the slots just fine - and if there is a bit of daylight at top or bottom no big deal - it happens and shows up in lots of originals. Now this info is for what I refer to as full woven loops where the loop come up from the back and than goes back through the same slot. For what I call semi-woven, where you come up from one hole and back down through a second, the layout is different. An advantage to the semi-woven is the ctgs can spaced farther apart so for a "big" guy you can fill in more of the belt with loops but keep down the number/weight.
I never pre-stretch but only lightly dampen my strips and I seldom get to much stretch - just pull up by feel - it it wants to stretch just don't pull so hard.
As for the number of loops - most period belts had as many loops as possible but the most were't so big in the waist. For a standard I offer 30-40 full-wove loops as a base and anything over that is extra. With semi-woven loops you get about 20-30 in the same area. In 44/45 the wieght increases fairly rapidly and 40 or more loops start getting heavy.
Placement on the belt - I generally put the top of the loop 3/8-1/2" down from the top of the belt which was the most common placement in period. This allows one to push up on the ctg from the bottom and the head will then be just above or even with the top of the belt making them easier to grasp.
When doing woven loops I like to start in the middle and work towards both ends - less material to pull throuh each time.

[will ghormley]

I use 4-5 oz. for the loops, cut 'em a little wide like Chuck says, and never dampen my loop lace at all.  As for the number of cartridges carried on the belt, if you want to carry fewer of 'em, just leave a wider space between your slots.  If you leave 3/4" to an 1" between cartridges, you can put a decorative rivet or spot between the loops.  I like the looks of that when I want something a little dressier.

Will

[mtgelaude]

  Thanks for the info.  I am a little more informed about this now.   Before I try on my belt, I will try out on some scrap, see how it goes. 

Two things I still have a question about.  One, what could I use to punch the holes besides a oblong punch.  I do not want to buy a $40 punch for the occasional belt.   I think that I can punch two holes and either use a chisel or a razor and cut the slot, what size of hole punch would you recommend.  It will take more time, but the price of the punch will pay for Leather for a holster. 

  The second thing, in between the slots, when the leather is on the back side (rough side) of the belt, should I glue it down, or leave it alone?  I am either going to use conchos or copper rivets for anchor the two ends, but is that all the anchoring that happens?

Thanks again.  I love this board, you guys know the answers to almost anything.

[Slowhand Bob]

The hole size should equal the thickness of the leather to pass through, are you going to weave with a hole at each side of the individual loops or are you going to have a single looped pushed through each slot, this will determine hole size.  Just do not make it so tight that it puckers the leather.  Yes it is possibleto cut from hole to hole on each side to create a slot but WOW you are adding a whole lot of work to the job this way.  Used but still good slot punches can be found on Ebay for under twenty dollars and at some point the odds of damaging a twenty, thirty or more in dollars piece of leather really increases when doing tedious work like this.  I have never glued down the hidden side but have on occasion, when skipping space between loops, riveted it from the front side for a decorative look.  (kinda looks extra good if spots are used)  Other than decorative I do not to use either, theoretically you can re-stretch the loops in the future if they are only fastened on the ends.  Even when hand sewing I preferred sewing the loops as I thought it added a professional look and also made using a liner much easier.

[Ned Buckshot]

I have used the hole punch and then a chisel of appropriate width for sizes of slots that I don't have a punch for and it worked well.

Just be extra sure you have it lined up just right before you whack it!

Ned

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

         I like to use an oblong punch for through the same hole loops, and for semi through loops ( hole on each side of bullet) I like to use a good wood chisel the appropriate size to give a snug fit,I use a very small hole punch at the ends of each slot, this will aid in keeping your leather from tearing out over time, Chuck Burrows turned me on to this, and it gives a nice neat loop that holds up well, and the spacing can be as he points out widened so that you can keep the amount of bullets down, and weight too, spots or even small concho's can be used to fill in between the loops to give a nice look, as also pointed out, if you make your holes a little smaller and the loop leather a little wider, it will give you a nice looking and snug job.


                            tEN wOLVES   

[DUKE DEADEYE NUKEM]

BTT

[Blackey Cole]

I am sort of large myself 48" pants.  I built my first cartridge belt with around 25 or so rounds and loaded it up with them 45's.  I shot a few monthly's and never noticed the weight then shot a large match with lots of walking and stuff and that belt got real heavy after noticing that most of the shooters carried no more that five rounds on their belt and these were up front where they could get to  the easily I took off the bullets and started carrying my reloads on the shotgun belt which isn't worn except when shooting.  So I know it looks great to have a belt full of cartridges but unless you are riding a horse all day through country where you might be jumped and need to defend yourself they do not make much sense except for showing off.

[Cliff Fendley]

I pretty much do it exactly like Chuck described. 30 loops is my standard and I normally use 3-4 oz leather for the loops.