Dragoon cylinder stop problem

Stophel · October 28, 2011, 11:33:11 PM

Ok, finally getting around to fooling with the Dragoon I got some time ago. It is the Uberti Whitneyville "transitional" Dragoon with the oval notches.

It is virtually new, having been fired maybe 24 times. It is overtraveling on two chambers. I began studying and looking at the gun, and finally decided that the main problem is that the cylinder stop notches, which are beaten up kinda bad, are simply too shallow (they are real shallow on the "stop" side... The notch in my 60 army is twice as deep, definitely a more positive stop!). The shallow notches combined with a cylinder stop that had a top surface that was rounded (arc'd from front to back). This meant that only a tiny bit of the stop was getting into the notch anyway, and was allowing the stop to slip out of the notches, and beating them up more and more every single time I cycled the action attempting to figure out what was wrong with it. (It definitely ain't a S&W DA revolver!!! I can't see ANYTHING in this gun!).

Now, I am afraid that I am going to need a new cylinder. These notches are just too shallow (I'm sure they are standard depth, but standard depth sucks....probably why Colt changed them to the now-normal type notches with leads) and they are now pretty beat up. I flattened off the top of the cylinder stop so it would bottom out in the notches better, and it helped some, but the damage had already been done. Now, I could get a replacement oval notch cylinder and put it in and hope that it does better, OR could I get a second/third model type cylinder with the square notches and leads (and the appropriate cylinder stop to go with it) and fit it to the gun? I am reasonably certain that I read somewhere the other day where someone had done this, but I cannot find it now. As long as the cylinder stop is in the same position, and I can't imagine that it wouldn't be, it should work, right???

Coffinmaker · October 29, 2011, 07:37:17 PM

Maybe. Your going to have some fitting to do.

Coffinmaker

Stophel · October 30, 2011, 11:07:36 AM

I'm capable of the fitting, as long as everything lines up in the right position. The oval cuts are just SO shallow. And it also doesn't help that the cylinder stop is nearly round, not very oval, so it was only making contact at one tiny point instead of filling the slot.

Mako · October 30, 2011, 03:19:17 PM

Quote from: Stophel on October 30, 2011, 11:07:36 AM
I'm capable of the fitting, as long as everything lines up in the right position. The oval cuts are just SO shallow. And it also doesn't help that the cylinder stop is nearly round, not very oval, so it was only making contact at one tiny point instead of filling the slot.

Stophel,
The bolt stop notches have to be oval. The cylinder actually moves from the cylinder gap clearance to being fully against the barrel depending upon where you are in the cocking or firing cycle. There has to also be some clearance for alignment at assembly. When they make the cylinder it has snot been fit and the fore and aft position has not been set. This is the nature of factory production at the price points we pay for Uberti products.

There is normally plenty of meat on the 1848 cylinder, that is unless yours is somehow undersize which would explain the shallow notches. What is the diameter of your cylinder?

Since it is a simple feature it can be done at any shop, you don't even need an indexing fixture. The cylinder stops vary in size and are fit during assembly, so I'm not going to recommend an end mill size, the shop doing it can match the bolt and the existing notch sizes.

Are these Cimarron imports or from another importer? If it is Cimarron, and the notches are too shallow then it is a factory defect which they will repair or replace for you. It is obviously not a wear or abuse problem, so there shouldn't be any push back. Contact them and send a PM to "Abilene" http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?action=profile;u=2733 he can get you in contact with the right people over at Cimarron.

Regards,
Mako

Stophel · October 31, 2011, 01:49:56 AM

It did not come from Cimarron.

If I had access to a milling machine (I do not), I might have tried to deepen the notches myself. Unfortunately, they're pretty ugly now.

I can measure the depth of the notches and all tomorrow afternoon.

I'd be perfectly happy to use the oval notches (hey, they look cool!) IF they were deep enough to reliably catch the cylinder stop.

Capt. Augustus · October 31, 2011, 08:13:37 AM

I used to shoot Walkers a lot, and since they weigh so much, I shot them two handed. The fast cocking by the off hand caused the notches on the cylinder to preen on the stopping edge, which caused the pistol to fail.

I know the Kirst cylinder for the Walker has rectangular notches. Raven made an entry some time in past concerning this.

I found the entry, unfortunately I can`t figure out how to copy the link using this pad, it is in the Open Top section concerning the Whitneyville and conversion cylinder.

Mako · October 31, 2011, 09:34:56 AM

Augustus,
Here you go...

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,39357.msg500040.html#msg500040

~Mako

Stophel · November 08, 2011, 08:19:55 PM

Finally getting back to it.

Thanks, guys! That's the information I was looking for.

The square notches are definitely a better design. I cock a pistol pretty quickly, so it HAS to be reliable for me.

My oval notches are about .031" deep on the "stop" side, and about .045" on the "lead" side. Purty dang shallow. I don't know if that's normal or not, but they should be at least twice as deep, I think. The cylinder is 1.867" in diameter.

I requested stock availability on a cylinder from VTI about a week ago, with no response yet. I'll try again.

Stophel · December 05, 2011, 10:15:48 PM

Well, after much rigamaroll, I finally got a cylinder.

I fitted the new cylinder stop to the frame. I had to square up the ends of the slot in the frame, which I did with a diamond file (case hard). I figured I might have to do that. Just make sure to cut only in the round "corners" and don't file on the sides of the slot! That fit and worked perfectly after that.

When I put the cylinder on, and worked it by holding the cylinder back with my fingers, without the barrel on, it cycled perfectly. With the barrel on, it bound up tight on two opposing chambers. I FINALLY found that it was wearing hard on two opposite spots inside the cylinder at the front, and I could see a wear mark on the top of the front bearing band on the arbor (these guns do weird things when they're wedged). Apparently, with the barrel on, it was flexing the arbor up, which still doesn't make sense, but anyway... The cylinder fit on the arbor a tad more snugly than my original one did, which is good. I took a file and lightly scrubbed down the high spots inside the cylinder (found by putting black marker on them and seeing where it rubbed off), then sanded it smooth. Repeated a couple of times and that got it. And it still fits the arbor at least as snugly as the original cylinder did.

And, most importantly, it works wonderfully. Stops absolutely positively, even when I cock the hammer quickly (and I always cock the hammer quickly). I might work down the tip of the cylinder stop so that it bottoms out in the cylinder a bit more, and do a little more clean up here and there, but by golly, I got 'er done in just a couple of hours.

And the timing seems perfect. The stop clears the cylinder before the hand starts turning it (no ding marks on the stop) and it locks up and comes to full cock at exactly the same moment. Coolio.

Too bad the rectangular slots with leads don't look as good as the oval slots!!!