Getting more female shooters in WB

[Sacramento Johnson]

Hi all!
I rarely post new topics, but this has been on my mind for awhile.  I've been scanning various WB match scores over the last year or so, and don't see a whole lot of participation by female shooters, both modern and especially the traditional catagory.  I like to think this was not part of the intention of those who codified the SASS rules (correct me if you think otherwise).  Rather, I think it has to do with the 45acp caliber, type of pistol used, and PF rules.
I don't know very many women shooters who can handle a 1911 with a 230 grain round two handed, let alone one handed.
Yes, one can down load and chonograph, and tweek springs etc to get a 1911 to work with something less than the standard round it was designed for, but if a woman doesn't reload or have acess to a reloader, chronograph, or a good 1911 smith, that is very difficult to do.  If she doesn't have alot of upper body strength, especially wrist, forearm and fingers, even then there might not be a 45 acp round light enough that will pass the PF and actually work in the gun, for her.

I'm thinking that perhaps making some dedicated women's catagories might be a good idea, where in they could use calibers smaller than 45acp, and perhaps a two handed hold even in traditional.  This might encourage more female shooters to try out both WB catagories in higher numbers.  What do you all think?

[August]

Time for you to move.

Many women shoot WB here in Arizona.  Some of the best shooters in WB are women.  Many of them shoot one handed with no problem.  John Browning took care of that issue 100 years ago.

As to downloading, don't forget that WB has strict PF rules.  We don't want this sport to get corrupted like CAS has with respect to PF.

I hope no women read your remarks, which are less than flattering to the distaff troops.

[Jefro]

We have a few ladies that shoot WB, most with 200gr RNFP that meet the PF. So far they are doing fine once they learn how to handle the 1911, if they have never handle a 1911 it takes a little getting ustoo. I know this is a dead horse but I'm gonna say it anyway, we would have alot more ladies (and men) participating if they would allow 38sp rifles. Most folks ain't gonna buy another rilfe just to shoot a few more matches a year, and 38sp is what most of the ladies are shooting. I'm not advocating light loads, the 38 with 158gr bullet loaded well above the PF sounds, rings steel, and handles KDs just as effective as a 200gr 45 near the bottom of the PF. Check with your local clubs, they may allow 38s, we do, and we also have an Open category to encourage more shooters to give it a try. Maybe add an extra stage or two to your regular SASS match to introduce WB to the ladies. Better yet organize a SASS Wild Bunch Action Shooting Orientation day. As for sanctioned matches, the WB ain't gonna change and that's in stone. Good Luck

SASS Wild Bunch Action Shooting Orientation Program

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Sacramento Johnson]

Howdy!
Think I'll stay here!  I am a woman, and here in S. Nevada, only a very few do WB shooting. I've watched the female CAS shooters in this area over the past decade; recoil is a major concern for most.  I consider my remarks to be realistic, based on a thorough understanding of female physiology/anatomy and strength compared to males. As for John Browning 'taking care of' one handed shooting for women; guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.  
There have been numerous opportunities to shoot WB here in S. NV over the last few years (I actually organized one of the very first WB matches in this area several years ago) and one of the Pahrump clubs is very open to 'open' type WB shooting, yet turn out is pretty low.  

As for the official SASS rules; actually nothing really seems to be set in stone for them; look what happened to external mods such as bisley hammers on non-bisley guns, or adjustable sight revolvers only in modern.

I hardly think that a different PF for women would lead to any 'corruption' of WB shooting. The non-gender specific catagories can stay as they are.

[LoneRider]

My wife would shoot WB but she can't rack a slide on any Semi-Auto, just not enough strength.

[rickk]

I an an NRA pistol instructor. I teach about 100 people a year, and have done so for 20-ish years now.

During the "hand's on" portion, each student has to load and unload dummy ammo into both a revolver and also a semi-auto.

I use a 1911 for the semi-auto portion.

The particular semi-auto I use is a gold cup turned pin gun. The original spring on a gold cup is very light, but using it would destroy the gun with pin loads. I replaced it with a "standard" weight colt spring.

Anyway, off the top of my head about 1/10 guys seem to have a little trouble working the slide but they pretty much all are able to do it eventually.  With women it is maybe 3/10 that have problems. A small percentage (1/20 maybe... I am guessing here) simply can not work it at all and I pull out a Browning Hi-Power so that they can use that to get thru the course.

Note that I show them tricks to make it easier before they even try the hands on (cock hammer first to get the hammer spring out of the picture, plant the grip base into use one's waist to give a little more to work the slide against.

I believe that the majority of the people who do have a problem, be it male or female, tend to be  50+ and a bit on the frail side.

So, where I am going with all this is that, in my experience with hundreds (couple thousand maybe) of basic pistol students, women statistically do have a harder time working the slide than men. Again, there are many women that have no problems at all, and some men that do have problems.

I am not sure if a solution would be a different PF (and hence a lighter spring) for women is 100% fair. There could be arguments both ways. What about the frail 50+ year old male office worker? Is it fair to give a 25 year old athletic woman an advantage and not him? I dunno.

To be honest, no one is born knowing how to use a gun.  If it is hard the first couple times and one gives up, it will always be hard. If one practices a bit, the correct motions become memorized and it becomes easier. Shooting is a bit of an athletic sport and if one does it a bit, like any athletic sport, one will get a bit stronger.

If the goal is to get more people to shoot, both male and female, some sort of reduced PF might do that. Long term however it does not seem fair to allow reduced loads perpetually. When the new shooter isn't new any more the reduced PF will be an advantage. Also, there are plenty of women that have passed thru my class that had no problems with my 1911.

For what it's worth, it also isn't unusual for women to out-shoot their husbands when we go on the range.

[Grizzly Adams]

Some of the best ladies WB shooters on the planet live here in NM.  Texas Tiger shoots Modern and Half a Hand Henri shoots Traditional (duelist) - and not always LT - she frequently shoots against the men.   Lawless Lori Sue is a Grand Dame who shoots the socks off most of the men.  She is quick, and usually shoots clean.  The 1911 can be mastered by almost any woman who really wants to play WB.  Give it a try, SJ.

I was discussing this subject with a very talented cowgirl shooter, and asked why she did not shoot WB.  She said it was not the recoil of the 1911 that she found unpleasant - it was the fact that the slide moved!  Thinking about it, that may be a bigger issue than recoil.......

[PJ Hardtack]

My time with the .45ACP 1911 goes back to the early days of IPSC when it was still 'Combat Pistol Shooting' ala Jeff Cooper. We had several lady shooters (some quite diminutive) who handled 1911s with aplomb shooting Major PF loads. It wasn't until it became a 'sport' that tricked out guns with comps, ports and 180 gr bullets became the norm.
I burned out of IPSC with the gamers and all-out equipment race and went to CAS. Then it was one gun (usually .44 or .45) and loads would have scored IPSC Major and then some! Then the games took over with pop gun loads and it became 'IPSC In Cowboy Boots'!
Some things ought to be sacred and I sincerely hope that WB 1911s with classic loads will be among them. Can't handle it? Shoot some other game. I'm tired of accomodating gamers whose loads barely register on timers.

I recently gave a brief 1911 familiarization to a young lady who is studying to be a Conservation Officer and will carry a .40. In no time she lost her fear of the dread .45 and was happily ringing steel at 15 yards. Using a two hand grip, she suffered one 'limp wrist' malfunction (failure to return to battery) in four mags of 215 gr/5.2 Green Dot ammo. The gun has had less than 200 rds through it and I get the odd hang up.
Up to now, my wife has expressed no desire to shoot a 1911, but that demo has caused her to rethink her attitude. Today I had her repeatedly pull back the slide and after an initial struggle, she caught on. Next time I get her to load a mag of dummy rds and repeatedly 'fire' and eject them by pulling back the slide to 'lock back'.

[Border Ruffian]

If the goal is female inclusion and expansion in WB shooting,  the best thing to do is throw away the SASS rulebook on the local level.  I know several females that have a difficult time with semi automatic handguns.  They should be alowed the use of single or double action revolvers.  There should be more leeway in rifles and shotguns also. There is a lot of room for improvement.  There are clubs that have followed this example, but alas, they are far from my location.  From thier website, the Sand Creek Raiders seem like the most fun and enlightened.  They are a great example of a local club overcoming the stuffy national rules.