Model 1874 Dyer Cartridge Box - questions / help?

[bedbugbilly]

Call me weird, but I don't care that much for the traditional "cartridge belt" as far as carrying my cartridges.  I don't shoot competition so I'm not limited by rules.  I'd like to make a 1874 Dyer or similar cartridge box to carry my 38 spl. in for my New Vaquero.  As a result, I have some questions I hope someone out there can answer.
1.  Are any patterns available and if so, can you steer me in the right direction?
2.  If not, can somebody give me the approx. dimensions - height, width, gusset width, etc. if you have one?
3.  I'd like to line it with sheepskin like the originals but I don't want to buy a full size fleece - only a couple of square feet.  Anybody have a source for amall amounts?  If not, I'm looking at maybe some type of "artificial fleece" like is available at fabric stores for stuffed toys, bears, etc.
4.  I'm thinking of using about 8 - 10 oz. for the back (which also makes up the front flap), the front and then using a lighter weight for the gusset - any suggestions that are better?
5.  I haven't been able to locate the flap catch and plate - anyone know of a source?  S & S Firearms don't show 'em in their catalog.
I'm not concerned if I don't end up with an exact replica - am thinking of sort of a "civilian look" that will match my holster and belt.  Thanks for any help - greatly appreciated!   

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Ask for "Lift-the-dot" fasteners, like this;

http://www.dotfasteners.com/lift_the_dot.html

[WaddWatsonEllis]

As for the sheepskins, about any hospital supply company can sell you yard square 'imitation' sheepskin ... they use them under people's bottoms to prevent pressure sores .... and they can be bought fairly cheaply  for instance ....

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=sheepskin+pads&tag=mh0b-20&index=hpc&hvadid=41054627&ref=pd_sl_3z2ibal8xs_p

[David Carrico]

I had the die made to make the brass plates on the Dyer Pouches. I think it will take me awhile to use the 500 pieces that was my minimum order, so I have a few extra. The style I had made is the one that is turned the other way, not the one shown in your photo. Here's a pic.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions - it's greatly appreciated!

Sir Charles - thanks for the link on that type of fastener - I've been looking for those for some later era projects.  The Dyer box acutually uses a flat brass plate which hooks over an acorn finial stud.  The plate rivets to the front of the flap.  David Carrico was kind enough to steer me in the right direction on them as he uses them on some of his products.   

WWE - Thanks for the tip on the fleece . . . DUH . . I feel like my brain is on pause on that one!  I never even thought about those and I should have as I had losts of experience with them when my mother was ill.  The artificial fleece would work perfect.  Much appreciated!   

Dave - thanks so much for your help and info - is greatly appreciated!  If some of you haven't checked out Dave's website . . you need to . . . he has some nice products and his work is awesome - it couldn't get any more authentic!  Some mighty beautiful things!   

[1st Sgt.]

Cavalry Equipment 1874
Ordnance Memoranda  No. 18

Plate 7 has deminsions and descriptions of Dyer Cartridge pouch.
Will send you PM with page if you'd like.

Regards

1st. Sgt.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you 1st Sgt.!  I rec'd the "plate" that you emailed to me and sent a reply to you.  This should give me all of the information that I  need to do my "project".   I've always founmd the Dyer a handsome and interesting accouterment.  Now, I hope I can do it justice and make a "civilian" version that will hopefully be at least half as handsome as the military version. 

My thanks to all for your help.  I'm always amazed at the resources and knowledge on this site and the willingness to share with others.  That's what makes it such a pleasure - all you good pards who are "of the old ways" and so willing to help others. . . . the way things should be.  I'm touched . . . I really am.  Thank you all again for helping me out . . it's really appreciated!   

[Freedom]

I know that I am a little late here...but here is a couple that I have made.

I really like the Sam brown brass post and an oval hole with a slit cut into the hole... I have one on a  head knife sheath that has been opened and closed at least 5000 (seriously) times and it is still tight.

I like my pouches to be formed, with no welt... this is not hard to do on a wood form. The trick is to use leather from around the belly/flank or shoulder area of your hide... It just will not form if you get too high up on your leather sides.

I suggest lining with Real sheepskin... if you still need some sheepskin (I have lots) or any tips please feel free to PM me... I also have lots of sam brown buttons

[Freedom]

here's the inside... it holds 10 45-70's... or 18, 45colts

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

  Excellent work Freedom  , these are quality pouches, and I like the way you worked the Sam Brown button into the spot design it really looks great, and your stamping ties it all together, the other one looks great too, well done pard, and thanks for the look see and sharing with us.


         tEN wOLVES 

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Really nice work, Freedom. I also like the molded pouches. They have a good look and go together better.

[bedbugbilly]

Freedom - your pouches are fantastic!  Very nice! 

In reference to the Sam Browne fasteners - I've used a lot of them as well and chuckled when I read about the one on your head knife.  I made a cell phone holder three years ago and used one on that - conservatively, it's probably been unfastened/fastened over 3,500 times if not more - and it's still going strong!  They are great fasteners, that's for sure!

I was able to get the acorn finials/plates for the Dyer pouch so will try them out.  I've made many, many hunting pouches with welts but have always used "soft" leather - deer, elk and very soft cowhide - sewn them inside out and then turned them so finished side is out.  Am still pondering on how I'll do the Dyer.  I love your "molded" pouches though and was giving some thoguht to doing that even before you posted - thanks for the "nudge" as I really like the look of what you've done! I only have a monthe before we go back to MI for the summer so I have to get "crackin" on it as I don't have time to do leatherwork back there.  Thanks again for the photos, suggestions and advice - is greatly appreciated!   

[Trailrider]

The military M1874 Dyer pouches have a front piece, a back piece with the flap as part of it.  I use 4-5 oz topgrain cowhide for both. If you want the (useless) front pocket that is sewn between the front and the lambswool backing piece, also use 4-5 oz.  The military pouch has a 2-3 oz bead, folded in half, that goes between the front piece and the bellows (3-4 oz), and another bead that goes between the back piece and the bellows.  Practically speaking you can eliminate the beads without any problem. 

The seams are stitched together "flat" and inside-out. Once the pouch is stitched, I soak the pouch pretty good and turn it right-side-out.  It is NOT an easy task.  Unless you have a special sewing machine (even my TSC-440 doesn't have the right shaped arm and presser feet), it is a hand-sewn project!  I usually pre-drill holes in all the pieces so I can line them up properly.

Of course the finial must go on before the lambswool is sewn to the front.  And the belt loops (7-8 oz.) must go on before the rear piece is finished.  Once the pouch is right-side-out, the inner reinforcements are stitched to the front, bellows and back pieces.  Once the stitching is done and the pouch is "popped", I stuff the inside with towel paper, let it soak up the moisture and then replace the wet towel paper with dry until the pouch has time to dry.

The more rounded oval brass plate has a keyhole cut in it. That is the Rock Island Arsenal version, which is the more commonly found one. The one shown in the previous post is the Benicia Arsenal (California) model.  I have found some commercially made versions of the latter, but have to hand-make the RIA plates as I  haven't found anyone that has tooled up to stamp them. There are also a vertically oriented one more similar to the Benicia Arsenal style, but with the points going up and down.

I do find the pouch handy for holding shotshells and spare cartridges for CAS matches.  The troops apparently didn't care for them as they concentrated the weight of the .45-70 rounds, favoring the saddler-made or later issued cartridge belts. An ordnance officer and NCO were inspecting the troops on the Big Horn & Yellowstone Expedition (Crook's column) and only found one sergeant wearing his Dyer pouch. When asked to show Capt. Michaelis the contents, the sergeant sheepishly opened it to reveal...a sandwich!   Trumpeter, sound mess call!

[bedbugbilly]

Trailrider - thank you very much for the detailed steps - it's greatly appreciated.  That is prretty much how I figured on constructing it only I was going to leave the welts out.  As you stated, I really don't see the purpose in them?  I got some plates and acorn finials from David Carrico for the flap fastener so will try to use one of those and see how it works out.  I've made a lot of hunting pouches over the years and am familiar with stitching them inside out and then "turning" them but I have to admit, with the dimensions of the Dyer, I was wondering how it will all work out.  I'd hate to stitch one up and not be able to get it turned!     I was also wondering on the weight of the back and front piece and you've answered my questions on that.  I have never had an opportunity to handle and inspect an original, but I sort of figured that the "pouch" on the front was basically useless so I will probably leave that off.  I can't imagine what I'd carry in it anyway unless it was a "mustard pack" for the sandwich???     Thanks again for your construction explanations - they're a great help!