Why the old S&W top break revolvers could handle Black Powder

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Here are some photos I took today of the barrel/cylinder gap and gas ring on my New Model Number Three. I do not own an Uberti Schofield, but next time I see somebody shooting one I am going to ask if I can remove the cylinder and see how Uberti treated this area.

Or perhaps some member could post some similar photos of their Uberti revolver.

These first two photos show the barrel/cylinder area from two slightly different angles. You can see that the barrel/cylinder gap is not in the same plane as the the front of the gas ring.





This next photo shows the relationship of the cylinder to the arbor it spins around. The arbor has helical grooves milled around it very similar to the grooves on a Colt style C&B revolver. These grooves provide a place for fouling to build up without causing the cylinder to bind as it rotates.



This last photo shows the detail of the gas ring milled onto the end of the cylinder. The gas ring stands about .165 proud of the face of the cylinder. The very front face of the gas ring is what rides against the barrel frame. When the cylinder is assembled to the frame, the arbor is inserted into the gas ring and passes up into the inside of the cylinder. The spring loaded rod with the hole through it is the extractor rod which rides inside the arbor.



When the gun is fired, the first line of defense against the cylinder binding is the fact that most of the fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap is deflected away from the arbor by the gas ring because the opening to the arbor is .165 away from the plane of the barrel cylinder gap.

My New Model Number Three is chambered for 44 Russian. I have not performed a real torture test of it yet. So far I have only fired about 30 rounds at one sitting, because I am still fussing with my loads. Still, I have not experienced any binding yet.

I am using various charges of Schuetzen FFg powder with a Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet lubed with SPG. So far when I have taken the cylinder off to clean the gun I have found a small amount of fouling has worked its way past the gas ring and been deposited in the helical grooves cut onto the arbor. But very little, not enough to cause any binding. I do not intend to shoot this old Smith all the time as one of my Main Match revolvers, but I sure didn't buy it as a safe queen either. I hope to report back once I have fired it in a match.

P.S. I also have two old S&W topbreak pocket pistols, a 32 caliber Lemon Squeezer and a 38 caliber single action. They both have similar gas ring arrangements.

[Wild Horse Hans]

You can look at mine next shoot at Country pond on Apr 17th. At long last I am able to start up again in CAS.

[Dick Dastardly]

Yes Driftwood,

And, this isn't an expensive feature.  There's no reason modern made replicas couldn't be made the same.  I contacted Uberti and asked about it and was told that their Schofields weren't made for black powder.  Replica black powder guns that aren't made to work with black powder.  Go figure.

DD-DLoS

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Wild Horse

I don't believe we have met. I would be very happy if you allow me to examine your Schofield at Country Pond. I hope to bring my New Model Number Three for its first cowboy match.

Howdy Dick

The reason, as I'm sure you know, that the Uberti replicas don't shoot Black Powder well is that they lengthened the cylinder to allow them to shoot longer rounds like 45 Colt and 44-40, but they did not correspondingly lengthen the frame to allow them to maintain the same distances for the gas ring. S&W on the other hand made a few New Model Number Threes chambered for 44-40. In order to do so they did lengthen the cylinder about 1/8" to accept the longer rounds, but they also lengthened the frame a similar amount, so the gas ring design was the same.

[Pettifogger]

Yours is a beauty.  Mine's kinda doggy, but here's a photo of a No. 3 .44-40 cylinder.  Not counting the gas ring, it measures 1.560" long.

[Wild Horse Hans]

Driftwood, we did meet a couple of times but it was about 3 years ago so I doubt you remember. I only got to shoot one match and had to back off due to a layoff. The first time we met was at Candia and you let me try your guns after the match and the second time was at fist full of cas at country pond. I have a 5 inch Schofield and 2 7 inchers on order. I hope they come in soon. Either way I will bring what I have next time.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Pettifogger, thanks for the information. My cylinder is about 1.425 long, which I understand was standard on the New Model Number Three chambered for 44 Russian, as well as a host of other cartridges.

The 38-40 and 44-40 versions had longer cylinders, like yours. According to Supica and Nahas, they had cylinder 1 9/16" long as opposed to the 1 7/16" of the other calibers.

Wild Horse - Looking forward to getting reaquainted.

[Fox Creek Kid]

It should be duly noted that there was a learning curve even with S&W in the 1870's to the extent that they changed/lengthened the "gas collar" (their words) THREE times due to fouling complaints with the Model 3. The last change, whis is the style on Driftwood's gun, was settled upon during the 2nd Model American run.

This is covered with fantastic photos in the Pate book on the S&W American Model book.

[Dick Dastardly]

I'm sure that changing the existing Uberti design to incorporate the longer cylinder with the extended gas ring would be cost prohibitive.  But they should have done so in the 1st place when it wouldn't have cost near as much.  Another example of the bean counters influencing the outcome in a negative way.

I can only hope that when the M&H guns finally hit the market they will be designed to shoot black powder, as the originals did.

DD-DLoS

[Fox Creek Kid]

Dick, I highly doubt it had to do with money. It was merely en engineering shortcut. The fact of that matter is that 99% (if not more) of CAS shooters use smokeless so it really is a moot isssue for the Italians. For the record, Armi San Marco made the most authentic copy of the Schofield, even better than S&W's own remake and as Driftwood mentioned they lengthened the cylinder for .45 Colt and eliminated the gas collar. Uberti made the entire gun a bit longer than the original.

S&W should have known even better than the Italians about the gas collar since they reverse engineered a Schofield owned by their historian, Roy Jinks. They chose to use a Mountain Gun diameter cylinder as well and a frame mounted firing pin. Talk about an abortion.   

The bottom line is that we traditional BP shooters are neglected somewhat when it comes to most cartridge guns. However, Uberti has done it right on the '72 Open Top and even put a small gas collar on their conversions when the originals didn't. Go figure. 

[Wild Horse Hans]

I wonder if part of it was that the .45 Schofield round was not real popular when they designed the gun and rather than enlarge the entire gun just adapted to the longer cylinder for the more popular.45 Colt round.
There must be a way to help seal off the cylinder pin, but the space between the cylinder and forcing cone will always be a place that fouls.

[Fox Creek Kid]

I wonder if part of it was that the .45 Schofield round was not real popular when they designed the gun...

The .45 Schofield brass did not exist when Uberti & ASM designed their models. The first batch of (modern) Schofield brass was made in 1996 by Starline. The Uberti & ASM were already in production at that time.

[Bishop Creek]

The .45 Schofield brass did not exist when Uberti & ASM designed their models. The first batch of (modern) Schofield brass was made in 1996 by Starline. The Uberti & ASM were already in production at that time.

That's interesting FCK. Explains why Starline called it ".45 Schofield" instead of the original 1870s term: ".45 S&W."

[Wild Horse Hans]

Driftwood, if you want bring some extra BP rounds and we can put them through my Uberti Schofields and see how and where they foul up. I don't mind the extra cleaning to find out.

[Four Eyes Henry]

I sold mine because it couldn't handle blackpowder, but a friend of mine found out (much later) that with Big Lube bullets he could shoot a whole match.
I personally think that the frame is the main thing, the fouling can "escape" there and with the replicas fouling builds up causing the cilinder to bind.

[Cuts Crooked]

I sold mine because it couldn't handle blackpowder, but a friend of mine found out (much later) that with Big Lube bullets he could shoot a whole match.

I found the same thing with my Uberti 75 Remmies. With "ordinary" bullets they would bind up after one cylinder full. With Big Lube boolits I can run a whole match.

[kurt250]

i just don't know why these gun makers have to change anything. just use the better medals that they have today. with the cdc machinery they have nowadays you would think to reproduce these old pistols would be easy. i guess theres a lot more to these replicas then meets the eye. i sold my schofield pistol because it wouldn't handle black powder. theres a replica i wish they would reintroduce with the changes that allowed it to handle black powder and with a long barrel. kurT250

[Bishop Creek]

I really liked my Navy Arms Schofield but sold it some seven years ago because it just would not work well with black powder. I think the Big Lube Bullets™ were just coming out at that time, but unfortunately I sold the revolver before I bought my first batch Big Lube Bullets™.

[Four Eyes Henry]

What I meant is that under the topstrap of a replica above the forcing cone the fouling builds up.
With my navy arms WF model the topstrap didn't have the clearing at the end.
That is the difference with the originals, but lacking the gas collar doesn't help either.
( my ms paint doesn't work but you get it, right?)

[Arizona Trooper]

The earliest pistol I have seen with the gas ring is the DA Cooper from ~1863. It looks like a double action Colt '49 pocket, but shoots worlds better than the Colt. With that gas ring, you can fire several cylinders and it still spins as freely as if it was the first load. My 38 S&W Lemon squeezer is like that too. Great to shoot with black powder, but a pain to clean.