Shooting the 455/popularity

Dead Dog Jack · January 03, 2011, 04:35:48 PM

Hello Canadians,

Any of you guys shoot the .455 Webley at all? If so, Mk I or II? What kind of popularity does it have in Canada?

Sir Charles deMouton-Black · January 03, 2011, 07:55:35 PM

I have a Mk VI, and so does my son. I shoot converted .45 Colt cases shortened to .45 ACP length. Sort of close to the Mk I case. My son has a box of FIOCCHI .450 Corto ammo, same as .450 Adams. I also have some Hornady MkII cases. I have a small supply of military Mk II ammo, but its hopeless. We don't shoot a lot, but they are fun. Can't use them in SASS matches.

PJ Hardtack · January 28, 2011, 06:43:12 PM

I've got a couple of 450/455s that would break your heart ..... the only ones remaining from 24 (!!!) .455s my ex-wife collected.
I don't want to tell you about the ones I let slip away .....

The flagship is a 5-shot DA Tranter 450 Army Model circa the late 70s. About 95% original conditin. I'm in the process of having it de-reg'd to 'antique' status.
T'other is a MKV1 made by Enfield under licence in 1924. Probably one of the last MKVIs to be paid post-WW1; about 95%/Vg-Exc overall. Grips are marked 'S' for small. Be a great gun for a British Officer impression.

The Tranter is a joy to handle and shoot. Looks like something Sherlock Holmes would have in his greatcoat pocket. I keep the loads pretty mild at 5.2 Unique. Loaded up some with BP but haven't had the heart to dirty the gun with them as yet.

I've got a good supply of original Dominion .455 brass and some cut down from 45 Colt to proper dimension. Too bad the anal rule makers won't let me shoot it as a match gun, but the locals allow it at the club level so long as I shoot it SA. Everyone wants to have a couple of shots with it and it is my joy to let them.

WaddWatsonEllis · January 29, 2011, 01:38:24 AM

A SASS friend who loads for my Schofields is going to take a box of .45 Auto Rim and load them up with cowboy loads of BP ... so I get to fire my MKVI without risking being called 'Lefty' for the rest of my life ... I can't wait

Sir Charles deMouton-Black · January 29, 2011, 02:38:11 PM

WWE; Don't you love it when a plan comes together? Next step is to find some 1/2 moon clips.

Have you visited "gunboards"? Try "British Gun Pub" for webleys, enfields & other imperial stuff.

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?56-British-Gun-Pub

WaddWatsonEllis · January 30, 2011, 03:10:27 PM

Sir Charles ...

That is the nice thing about the auto rim ... no moon clips needed. And once they are fired, they will be 'expanded' to the .455 by the Webley's cylinders, and my friend will reload them for me to shoot again ...

RattlesnakeJack · March 31, 2011, 02:08:55 PM

Despite being very much a .455 aficionado, I neglected to respond to this thread initially, but PJ's recent post has brought it to the fore, so I might as well jump in .....

I have several revolvers chambered in .455, and one each chambered in .450 and 476 .... As I have commented many times and places, despite that nomenclature all of these cartridges are actually .455's in terms of case-mouth and effective bullet diameter, and for all intents and purposes are interchangeable. At any rate, one can certainly load .455 cartridges which can be fired in a revolver chambered for any of these three calibers. For more detail on that, go to this posting (on another forum) of diagrams giving the comparative dimensions of the various .450, .476 and .455 British service revolver cartridge cases and bullets - http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/7857/British-Service-Revolver-cartridge-specs-and-diagrams

When I first started shooting .455, I used mostly the longer Mark I cases for loading .... although the ones I have are actually .455 Colt cases originally produced by Dominion Cartridge in Canada. Although the .455 Colt is essentially just a North American commercial designation for the .455 Webley Mark I, the cases tend to be slightly longer ... as a result, I experienced some chambering problems in both my .450 Adams and .455/.450 Webeey WG Target revolvers with cartridges loaded in these cases. I have since determined that those problems would be eliminated if I length-trimmed the .455 Colt cases to Webley Mark I specs ....

The other problem with these .455 Colt cases is that they are almost all of semii-balloon-head construction, and relatively "elderly" to boot, so was occasionally experiencing case separation ... I now have a goodly supply of the Mark II cases manufactured by Hornady, and just tend to use those. (Of course, the longer cases are necessary for a "full" black powder load.)

Years ago now, having so many .455 handguns, I acquired one of the bullet moulds PJ mentions. Here is a photo showing the bullet design it throws ... which is a close approximation of the original British War Department Webley Mark II bullet.

A photo of some .455 cartridges .... left to right - factory-loaded .455 MkII; factory-loaded .455 Colt cartridge; handload using the above bullet and the same .455 Colt case; handload with that bullet in a .45 Colt case modified to .455MkI specs (which involves trimming the rim thickness from the front, and shortening to length) -

My current .455 "arsenal" .... provided I haven't forgotten any

.... includes (in rough order of age) -
(The first four are "antique" under Canadian law, and thus exempt from registration.)

- .450 Adams Mark III -

- .476 Enfield Mark II (documented as NWMP-issue) -

- .455 Webley RIC

- .455/.450 Webley 'WG Target' -

- .455 Webley Mk V (this one saw Australian police service - the inset shows the ownership/property markings it has denoting "Queensland Government" and "Queensland Police") -

- .455 Webley Mk VI -

- .455 S&W 'Hand Ejector' (Canadian WWI service revolver) -

- .455 Colt New Service -

- two .455 British military-issue "Old Pattern" revolvers (Spanish-made copies of S&W top-break design, acquired by the UK for secondary issue during WWI) -

PJ Hardtack · April 02, 2011, 12:04:02 PM

Nice collection Grant!

Does that long nosed bullet tumble as I suspect it will? Or just when it impacts? Not that you've dug many out of cadavers, of courese .... ;>)
Where did you acquire the Hornady brass?

Virginia Gentleman · October 18, 2011, 12:31:11 PM

Rattlesnak Jack: You have the nicest collection of Webleys I have ever seen and are a wealth of knowledge when it comes to their history, design and cartridge loadings. My question is with regard to smokeless loads, is there an advantage to using a .455 Colt (MkI) case over the MkII Webley case as I have both and the obvious source for new cases is Hornady which are Mk IIs?
I also have a nice supply of M&S Webley Mk II cases that are British in origin, large boxer primer hole and very thick in construction, so I am probably going to stay mostly with the MK II case as I have over 1000 total, but the .455 Colt/Eley just seems more versatile and more like a .45 Auto-Rim in its case capacity.

RattlesnakeJack · October 21, 2011, 11:39:20 PM

Todd: Sorry, I never saw your post from April ..... seems my "notification" got deactivated ...... I haven't had any problems at all with these bullets tumbling ..... And, to be honest, I can't recall where I got my Hornady cases! (Symptom of old age, perhaps?)

Virginia Gentleman: The only .455 Colt cases I have are old Dominion Cartridge Co. brass .... which is "semi-balloon-head" in construction .... and to be honest, I have experienced a number of case failures with it - i.e. cracking and even separation just ahead of the rim ..... So I have avoiding using iit for a while now.

While I'm posting in this thread, I may as well add a picture of the most recent addition to my ".455 Family" (..... acquired from PJ Hardtack, as a matter of fact ....) - a .476 Webley No. 4 revolver (a.k.a. Webley-Pryse) ....

PJ Hardtack · October 22, 2011, 11:10:05 AM

Gee, I had one just like that one time ... ;>)

For our fellow Canucks - there are a number of fine looking .455 Colt NS revolvers and a pair of nickle plated Webley No. 4s like Grant's on the Canadian GunNutz site at the moment.
Money may not be the key to happiness, but it lets one afford misery in any form - while it lasts!

The so- called 'Pryse' is the easiest to open of the Webleys, but not as strong as the latter 'stirrup' latch. But strong enough is good enough! I find I cannot effectively operate the 'stirrup' latch on my Mk VI with my right hand, necessitating shifting the gun to my left and pushing the stirrup with my left thumb. Awkward, but necessary.

I'm having to refine my collection, recycling seldom used guns to make room for others. Among the 'keepers' is my Tranter 450 Army, a real treasure.

PJ Hardtack · October 23, 2011, 10:25:11 AM

After reading Grant's posting, I made yesterday ".45 day" at the range. I took along two 1911s and a Colt NS in .455.

Starting out with the .455 at 15 yds, the NS gave me what I expected - six rds in 1 - 1/4" with an off hand two paw grip; right on point of aim, a little to the right. I see no point in bench rest shooting a hand gun, even less than I do rifle shooting. One never has a bench in the field.
Load was a lead .452/230 gr RN over 4.5 grs Trail Boss. Yeah, I know - this flies in the face of what is supposed to work in a .455, but I don't knock success; if it works, I run with it. My Tranter shoots even better with bullets sized .450.

I had IPSC silhouettes at 25 and 50 yds for the 1911s, and felt encouraged to try the NS at 50. As expected, the group printed to the right; a 12" spread bracketing the 'A' and 'C' zones of the IPSC target, slightly below POA. Definitely 'combat accuracy', but I expected better of the big Colt as I find the sight picture adequate and the trigger pull superb. The gun is also fitted with a Pachmayr grip adapter, giving a great hold on the gun.

How do your .455s group at 50 yards?

I'm puzzled as to why a load that prints so well at 15 yds grouped so poorly at 50. The 1911s (one a Gold Cup, t'other a box-stock Rem 1911 R1) did much better at 50 yds, so it isn't my ability to hold or see the sights. In fact, I've yet to find a load that my 1911s don't group beyond expectation. Oddly, the only bobbles I've had are with the Remington R1 and 230 RN - go figure .....

RattlesnakeJack · October 23, 2011, 10:45:04 AM

Can't say I have ever grouped any of my handguns at 50 yards ...

However, the tightest grouping .455 I have is my WG Target revolver (as shown above) which is an antique (made in about 1894, IIRC). The only photo I have which shows what it is capable of is this one. This target was shot at 25 yards, with a couple of different handguns and loads so it is plumb full of holes (it was the only one I had along that day, so I was taping it.) When I saw what the WG seemed able to do off hand, I sat down and fired it two-handed with my hands resting on the bench. The circled "one hole" group is fifteen rounds fired from that position. I used a 6 0'clock hold on the white bull (which is my norm) so it is clear that the revolver shoots right to point of aim. (I have n idea what induced me to pull the tape off all the other holes before I took this photo, by the way ....)