Load Data for the 40/60

[Black River Smith]

DrummerBoy,

"What all this has to do with is that everything I read seems to indicate that, given modern steel, the toggle action of 73/76 doesn't really give up all that much to subsequent developments. IMHO"  Now that I understand your overall premise, I will say --- To a certain point, I will definitely agree with your statement about the newly manufactured guns.  Just look over at the loading results of other shooter, in the other caliber reloading Stickies.  Some velocities are impressive.

But you have to understand, that I believe and other also, that the 1886 was a 'Stronger' overall design, in a shorter receiver frame than its BP toggle-link brothers.  Also remember that the '86 design with better steel, became the platform, for the revered Win '71 in 348 caliber.  Even the 1892 design had special High Velocity smokeless loads develop for it in the early 1900's.  Neither the 1873 or 1876 were graduated to higher velocity smokeless cartridges, until our modern times.    But again like you state -- the newer steel does allow for higher velocities and newer cartridges like the 44Mag in an 1873 design.  Sorry, I do not know about the smokeless loads for 45-70 Trapdoors.

But, I am now going to have to beg-out of this conversation because I only have the 49th Edition and it does not have what you are talking about.  So, I cannot read and maybe re-interpret what you are reading.  You see the 49th Edition was the first time Lyman even addressed the NEW '1876 replica' rifles and their reloading(my reason for buying it).  All the information was in one comprehensive chapter, only 4 pages total.  It only covered 40-60, 45-60 & 45-75.  Not the 50-95.

Also this Edition only has 2 other 40's (besides the 40-60).  Only one of them is what you are talking about, the 40-65.  In its intro page it does state "This data is intended for use in modern, newly manufactured guns rated for smokeless powder.  This data is not for use in antique guns originally built for black powder."

So hopefully others will be able to help you work through the newer Lyman Edition's intended information...

[DrummerBoy]

 Black River Smith,
What a SPLENDID piece of writing!!! (Did your wife proofread it?[mine did!])
Obviously must get that 49th Edition ASAP!
Joe Salter has a box of old 45-70 smokeless on his site right now... procedure to download a pic is beyond me at the mo...
BTW I might have waxed a little bit too eloquent in my zeal to support my faith in the toggle action on another site.....if anybody notices...not apologizing but I am owning up..
I spoke with Jathan at the Cody museum yesterday about the carrier size on those British Army trials rifles....that carrier DOES make for a longish action, but a smooth one, and the innards don't fall out...
Thanks Again!
DB

[Black River Smith]

DrummerBoy,
Thank you for the kind words.  No, my wife does not help me. I formulate my own thoughts and express them with my own word patterns.

I do hope you get your full questions answered by others.

Hope to see more of your questions here once you start your reloading journey.  There are a lot of experienced poster on this & other forums sections to give ideas.

BRS

[Roosterman]

Getting good results with this: 4.5gr 5744 and 45gr of swiss 1.5 with a 270gr bullet cast at .406 with 20 to 1. Only worked with it once at 50 yards but was getting groups around 2.5". Still having a little trouble with hard fouling but can go past 5 shots without cleaning or accuracy loss. Would be even better if the bullet carried more lube.

[Black River Smith]

Deleted my comments because it appears I misinterpreted the previous posting.  Sorry

[Slamfire]

 I think Roosterman, is talking about a "Duplex Load", 4.5gr. of 5744 + 45gr. of Swiss 1.5, the way i read the info.

   coffee's ready,  Hootmix.

[Black River Smith]

I think Roosterman, is talking about a "Duplex Load", 4.5gr. of 5744 + 45gr. of Swiss 1.5, the way i read the info.

   coffee's ready,  Hootmix.

If that was what he was referring to then I do apologize for my comment.  I read it as a smokeless load and then a BP load, not a duplex consisting of .....

[Roosterman]

Yes, duplex load. I didn't read your comment so if it was offensive, I'm not offended!

[Black River Smith]

Nope not being offensive to you.  I even used the words not meaning to be ignorant or mean.  I just thought that it was two different loads, a smokeless and a BP, not a duplex.

[Roosterman]

Re-reading my post I can see where it reads like two loads. I didn't explain that very well.

[Boone May]

I posted this on the Winchester collector's site (WACA) a while back but thought it might be appreciated here too.  Forgive me if this is all old news.

Reloading obsolete cartridges is a hobby of mine.  I recently took on the old .40-60 WCF using black powder for use in an original Winchester Model 1876 rifle.

I had some resized WW 45-70 brass in my stash that I got from Buffalo Arms years ago.  I recently found some Jamison .40-60 brass so did a comparison with the resized WW 45-70 brass. The Jamison brass has a slightly larger rim but not quite as big as an original Winchester make .40-60 cartridge in my collection. Not sure why, maybe they had to make them fit the reproduction guns.

I don't have reloading dies so I use an original Winchester Model 1880 loading tool. It works great for this. The fired cases didn't need resizing so after cleaning and de-priming I re-primed them.  I used Winchester large rifle primers.

I found the WW brass must have thinner walls as I can get 55 grains of Goex cartridge powder in them. On the other hand, the Jamison cases will only hold 50 grains and still have enough room to seat the bullet with light compression.

Bullet used was from original Winchester .40-60 WCF mold which drops a 210 grain bullet with two grease grooves. I used a .406" lube die and lubed with SPG.  Then used the loading tool to do the seat and crimp operation. Just like the boys did in the ranch house back in the day.

I have not been to the range yet to test these out. 

[King Medallion]

looking forward to the report!

[DrummerBoy]

Well obviously I'm too old and senile to be posting here much less fooling with primers and powder
Tried to pose a question regarding a suggestion in Venturinos "Lever Guns" but I put it on the 45-60 site....(sigh)
To get to the point:
He mentions shortening 45-70 dies to use reloading the 45-60
If this works then is the same course of action possible: using shortened 40-65 dies with the 40-60...
45-70 shortened for 45-60 reloading IAW Venturino
40-65 shortened for 40-60?
Thanks........

[King Medallion]

I dunno, I personally think you should just get the proper equipment for the task at hand, rather than cobbling things that MIGHT work.

[DrummerBoy]

Howdy King,
RIGHT you are! I just get frustrated with this current situation wherein support and participation for this sport seems to be drying up and here I'm trying to get started!
On the plus side, today is a red letter day for me because I built a round for the first time, 45-60, with dies from RCBS, press from Lee, primers from Republic, Brass from Steinel and, uh......Pyrodex from Cabelas....bullets from Montana
I might not actually shoot it but it DOES CYCLE through my NWMP replica!
Taking your advice I MIGHT have sourced a set of 40-60 CH4D dies....
BWT I really appreciate your concern and advice!

[Boone May]

Well obviously I'm too old and senile to be posting here much less fooling with primers and powder
Tried to pose a question regarding a suggestion in Venturinos "Lever Guns" but I put it on the 45-60 site....(sigh)
To get to the point:
He mentions shortening 45-70 dies to use reloading the 45-60
If this works then is the same course of action possible: using shortened 40-65 dies with the 40-60...
45-70 shortened for 45-60 reloading IAW Venturino
40-65 shortened for 40-60?
Thanks........

I don't see why you couldn't use Starline .40-65 brass as a basis for .40-60 WCF cases.  The .40-65 WCF (also known as .40-60 Marlin) was based on a necked down .45-70 case.  I never had to do this as I had a bunch of resized and shortened .40-60 WCF cases made by Buffalo Arms.  Give it a try and let us know results.

[Slamfire]

 40-65 down to 40-60 will work, 40-65 usually runs .406-.408. Just ck the dia. of expander plug in the sizer die in the 40-65. Cut the 40-65 down then anneal before sizing & trim to OAL.

   coffee's ready.  Hootmix.

[KenH]

Looks like I'm late to this thread.  I've been using Starline 45-70 brass to make 40-60.  I shorten the 45-70 brass to the right length, then necking it down.  Works just fine.  Since my 1876 is of the original Winchester, with a Uberti bolt I've been cutting my rim to match....  Darn, I can remember all the numbers right now, but there's a couple of threads on different size rims that's got good info.

edit:  Some info in this thread: 
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=64765.msg780783#msg780783

Ken H>