Spencer Carbine

[Dead I]

Here's a pic of a Spencer Carbine.  I has the Stabler cutoff, so it's post War, but I thought that folks would like to see it anyway.

[Mossyrock]

Holy cow!  Is that the original condition?   

[Delmonico]

Here's a pic of a Spencer Carbine.  I has the Stabler cutoff, so it's post War, but I thought that folks would like to see it anyway.

Any more info on it or just a picture?

[Dead I]

I bought this gun 40 years ago through the mail from Dixie.  It was described to me to be a centerfire redo.  When I received it I saw it was still a rim fire.  Fladermann's book described a lot of Spencers that were returned to the factory in 1868 to be refurbished and then re-issued.  This gun is one of these.  It has been sleeved to 56/50, CW guns were 56/56s.  The receiver was polished so the markings are "thin".  The blue and case colors were redone too. It looks to me that this gun was never fired after it was given its new lease on life.

Therefore, yes, the colors are original, but to 1868 and not to 1863 when this gun was probably made.  I love owning the gun however.  It is heavy and more buiky than the new replica. 

Custer's men used Spencers in the CW and for years in the Indian Wars as well.  They were replaced by the Trapdoor Springfield, of course.  Ammo companies made the round into the 1930's so they must have been pretty popular.   

[Fox Creek Kid]

...They were replaced by the Trapdoor Springfield, of course...

They were replaced by the Sharps 50-70 conversion carbines which were then in turn replaced by the '73 Trapdoors in 1874.

[Mossyrock]

Makes you wonder if things might have turned out differently had they kept the Spencers......

[Fox Creek Kid]

I don't think that Custer's troops were ever issued the Sharps carbine.  But I have seen that famous picture of Custer with his bear and Bloody Knife in the background leaning on his 50/70 Sharps.  Do you really think that Custer was issued the Sharps and then the Trapdoor?  In 1874, during the Black Hills expedition Custer was still being issued the Spencer and we see George leaving his tent with such a rifle.  

The Sharps was still pretty popular but I think the trapdoor surpassed it. Custer's personal rifle was a 50/70 officer's model. It was eventually replaced by a Rolling Block and it was this rifle that he was firing when he was killed.

I'll just merely point you in the direction where you can get the facts of which units were issued what & when:

http://www.gunandswordcollector.com/Templates/book%20pages/mcaulay_CUSC.html

[Trailrider]

I don't think that Custer's troops were ever issued the Sharps carbine.  But I have seen that famous picture of Custer with his bear and Bloody Knife in the background leaning on his 50/70 Sharps.  Do you really think that Custer was issued the Sharps and then the Trapdoor?  In 1874, during the Black Hills expedition Custer was still being issued the Spencer and we see George leaving his tent with such a rifle.  

The Sharps was still pretty popular but I think the trapdoor surpassed it. Custer's personal rifle was a 50/70 officer's model. It was eventually replaced by a Rolling Block and it was this rifle that he was firing when he was killed.

FYI, the 7th Cavalry was, at various times in the Inidan Wars Campaigns after the CW, and prior to about 1870, issued variously M1860 Spencer Carbines, cal. 54 (.56-.56), and later Spencers, cal. .50 (.56-.50).  Although I haven't dug out all the Quarterly Reports of Small Arms and Ammunition in the Hands of the Troops, the one photocopy I could grab quickly shows that by March 1871, all companies and headquarters of the 7th Cav were issued Sharps Carbines altered for metallic cartridge (.50-70 Gov't).  IIRC, without digging out my source books, Custer delayed departure from Ft. Lincoln so that all his troops could receive the M1873 Springfield Carbines, cal. .45, which were issued with the .45-55 Carbine round, rather than the infantry .45-70 round.  Custer's use of a .50-70 rifle, regardless of make, would have afforded him easy access to ammunition, even after the .45-70 arms were issued, as there were literally thousands of rounds of .50-70 left at the posts, and even some of the .50-70 arms were held, rather than being turned in, to arm civilian employees in the field with the troops, and for foraging, etc.

As for what Custer was shooting...if, indeed, he was still standing, and hadn't been hit at the ford prior to the last stand...the fact is that NOBODY knows!  If there were any eyewitnesses, they were probably Lakota or Cheyenne, and they didn't know it was Custer they were fighting until after the battle.

So far as the arguement that Custer's troops might have survived had they still had their Spencer carbines, that is doubtful.  His batallion was simply overrun, and the Indians were mostly firing repeating rifles or, even deadlier, bows and arrows!  Hunkered down behind dead horses, the troops would have presented little for a firearm-armed Indian to shoot at.  But arrows fired at high angles, much as a morter would have, found targets behind those horses. 

As to the theory that Custer's troops were handicapped by the Trapdoor Springfield jamming on them, based on the archeological dig conducted after the fire, cartridge cases fired from the troopers' carbines ranged from none to one that fired eight rounds.  The average was four shots.  Custer's troops were overrun before their carbines got hot enough to jam.  The same is NOT the case with Reno and Benteen's carbines as they fired a lot more rounds per gun, and therefore got more fouled and hot, and the copper-cased interior-primed ammo did tend to jam.

I have no more words!

[Dead I]

They did trace a 44 Henry Flat rifle across the battlefield by it's tail of fired cases. 

[St. George]

That information's found in 'Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Big Horn' - by Scott, Fox, Conner and Harmon.

After fire swept the battlefield, archaeologists accompanied by metal detectorists combed the denuded landscape and tracked numerous weapons by their fired cartridge cases - finding numerous artifacts that would detail how that battle unfolded.

I recommend reading it.

But - the topics here is the use of the Spencer carbine - period.

Keep on topic.

Scouts Out!

[shrapnel]

There continues to be "armchair quarterbacking" in regards to the firearms of the day, specifically Custer's battle at the Little Bighorn. Guns and their popularity were not considered for a fighting force, it was the overall reliability and effect of which rifle could do the most damage. The thought that the Indians had the advantage of firepower with repeating rifles against the cavalry with Trapdoor Springfields is misplaced.

Indians had overwhelming numbers in relation to Custer and his command, and without support, regardless of the rifles they had or could have had, they were out gunned. When Custer was leading the Michigan Wolverines during the Civil War, he was armed with Spencers and he cut the Confederate forces to ribbons using the Spencer. You have to remember that during the Civil War there were few Cavalry brigades, it was mostly foot soldiers with muzzle loading rifles. When Custer hit them, he was moujnted and moving fast, firing the Spencer and thrashing the scared foot soldiers.

The Indian Wars were different. The rifle needed was tested by the US Army and the Trapdoor Springfield was chosen on more than one criteria. Rate fo fire is critical, and the single shot Trapdoor was capable of sustained fire in vollies that made it a better choice than shooting a repeater dry and then being out of the fight until it could be reloaded.

Furthermore, what the "armchair quarterbacks" fail to realize is that the 45-55 in the Trapdoor carbine was capable of putting down a horse, something that a repeater with their much lighter loads weren't capable of doing.

If the Indians had better weapons than the Cavalry they would have been able to anihilate the remainder of the 7th Cavalry the rest of the afternoon and the following day, but they didn't. They did pack up and leave before Terry's troops came upon the scene, unable to kill the remainder of the 7th.  Superiority wasn't defined by repeating rifles as much as position and deployment with a unity of command that Benteen was able to maintain on Reno/Benteen hill.

[Dead I]

The archeologists who performed the dig in 1984 reported finding evidence of 108 Henry rifles.  However there were not that many cases or bullets found.  So the Indians, even if armed with Henry's and some '66's didn't have much ammunition.  By far most of the rounds and cases found at the Custer fight, fired by Indians, were cavalry rounds. Since the '73 carbine was relatively new I conclude that the Indians picked up guns from the Reno bottoms and used them against Custer.  Herendeen said that most of the soldiers when they made their "charge" up into the bluffs were firing their pistols.  Many must have dropped their carbines. (Yes, I know about the strap that they used to hang the carbine to their hips, but that was for carrying and not for shooting.)

Another interesting element, at least to me, is that a lot of shooting was done at long range.  We see the sights of our old trapdoors and Sharps rifles that go to 800 and 1100 yards.   From evidence at the battlefield, shots were fired at two to three hundred yards and even farther off.  People did shoot at long range in those days. After all it was safer.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...If the Indians had better weapons than the Cavalry they would have been able to anihilate the remainder of the 7th Cavalry the rest of the afternoon and the following day, but they didn't. They did pack up and leave before Terry's troops came upon the scene, unable to kill the remainder of the 7th.  Superiority wasn't defined by repeating rifles as much as position and deployment with a unity of command that Benteen was able to maintain on Reno/Benteen hill.

Time & again throughout the West when well armed defenders went "groundhog" in a well defended position they carried the day, e.g., Beecher Island, Wagon Box Fight, Hayfield Fight, etc. To run usually meant death or worse.

[Dead I]

Lt. Herendeen said that when Reno made his break for the bluffs that they weren't in that bad shape.  He said, "I'd been in a lot worse scrapes than that."  Also Reno had yet to lose a man.  Bloody Knife was hit in the head and brains and gore where splashed into Reno's face. He panicked.  He was also bombed which meant that he wasn't thinking right.

In the Wagon Box fight, Breecher's Island, the Hayfield fight, and Adobe Walls whites took cover and directed aimed fire at exposed Indians and survived. They survived at Reno Ridge too.  I think that in the Custer fight the Indian's did not present themselves as easy targets until Crazy Horse made his attack and by that time Custer's forces had been etritted to some degree, probably by half. (guessing)  Since there were not that many cartridge cases around Custer's men then they must have been killed before they could get off many shots, maybe because they couldn't "mark" their targets. Also the air was full of dust making it hard to see.

Stuck cartridges were not an issue on Custer Hill.  That happened rarely and only when the gun was hot.  Custer's men didn't fire enough to get their carbines that hot.  In all of the other battles at the time where the copper shell was fired from the 73 Carbine no one complained of stuck cartridge cases....only a few...three, I think, cartridges were found with evidence of being prised from the chamber.

Custer's officers were good, mostly experienced men.  Others who were not experienced where dedicated to their chore.  I think they did their very best.  Yes, at the end when it became obvious that they weren't going to make it, some may have committed suicide, which is Dr. Marquis's point in his book.  Some Indians said that the soldier's went "crazy".  To committ suicide to an Indian was crazy.       

[Fox Creek Kid]

Lt. Herendeen said that when Reno made his break for the bluffs that they weren't in that bad shape.  He said, "I'd been in a lot worse scrapes than that."  Also Reno had yet to lose a man.  Bloody Knife was hit in the head and brains and gore where splashed into Reno's face. He panicked.  He was also bombed which meant that he wasn't thinking right...

FWIW, Geo. Herendeen was merely a scout being paid $100 to return a message from Custer to Terry. Also, the hostiles were encircling Reno at his rear, hence the retreat as well as the fact that the area in front of Reno was by then chock full of hostiles. As one soldier later testfied that if they had continued on into the valley "they would still be there." 

[St. George]

Again - this isn't an LBH discussion - it's about Spencers.

Stay on track.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!