young'un needs help with his .45.

[priest]

For the record, I am an active duty, black rifle/glock Texan that has more money than experience, but I ask a lot of questions, and I hope that will cover the gap.

I recently switched from my modded glock to a 1911, and its a change. Bugger has more authority than a .40 plastic gun, and it just FEELS right. Anyway, I have been handloading for about a year, now, mostly . Mostly .308, and 5.56, then pistols like my rebarreled glock and the .45. It wasn't long before I saw references to darksiders and those nigh unholy flame-spewing monsters you call "handguns".

I so want to try this, but google and the internet fails to find me blackpowder .45 ACP loads. I understand asking random people for load data is russian roulette with a 1911, but I figure if I ask a bunch of experienced guys like yall, take the lowest charge, drop 10% and work my way up like normal, I should be alright.

So, venerable gunslingers, I ask you. What powder throws the most flame? I hear FFFg, or FFg. I heard about oddball lubes like lightweight motoroil, and I am sure the 1911 can handle that. lastly, what should I use as a starting load?

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho priest,

Welcome to the Darkside.

You will find lots of good stuff here, but here's something that I know works.

I use this load with Cowboy 45 Special brass.  C45Spl is 45ACP with a 45 Colt head.  Same internal volume and dynamics.

Size and prime with your favorite large pistol primer.  Drop in 1.3cc of your favorite black powder.  FFg or FFFg depending on your preference.  Brand is fairly irrelevant but make sure it's Genuine Powder.  I'm not talkin' kiss yer sister sub/replica stuff here.

Then seat a lube sized Big Lube®LLC bullet such as a DD/PUK/ROA-II to compress the powder about 1/8".  The EPP-UG or J/P 45-200 Big Lube®LLC bullets will also do your service very well.

Pick the one that feeds best in your gun.  I've found that the DD/PUK/ROA-II seems to offer the best feeding in 1911s.

Go to the range and print some paper.  You will find amazing accuracy and very enjoyable smoke and fragrance.

DD-DLoS

[priest]

it says here that those bullets are "hard cast" lead rounds, at 200 grains.  I have some 200 grain jacketed roundnose, something like 500 rounds of it for normal reloads. will those work, or do I have to use cast rounds?

[fourfingersofdeath]

I have a neato Ruger 45 Convertible languishing away in the safe, I will try that new mould I got off you recently to get acquainted with it. Sounds like a plan!

[Dick Dastardly]

 Black powder loads thrive on lube.  As long as your bullets carry enough lube and feed well in your 1911, you're good to go.  Jacketed bullets generally are not lubed.  Hard cast can work if they fill the groves well and carry enough lube for continuing accuracy.

The function of the lube in black powder guns is to keep the fouling soft.  Soft fouling will blow out with the next shot.  Ideally you should have second shot accuracy and function for as long as  you want to shoot with no need to clean between strings.  My guns easily go full annual SASS matches with no need to clean to maintain function or accuracy.  It's the lube that makes that possible.

DD-DLoS

[priest]

ok, I think I get it. when you talk about lube, you just mean lubing the bullet with it, not the entire weapon. makes a bit more sense.

sounds like this requires more than just swapping powders!

[Flint]

Question for DD or other who may have tried it...

Since I have no C 45 Special in my collecion to test chamber, will a C45S chamber in a 45ACP cylinder, such as the second cylinder I have for a Colt SAA?  Question would be, of course whether there is a rim clearance/headspace there.  I would presume the cartridge would have a problem locating in a 45AR chamber unless the chamber shoulder is in the correct place for the C45S case mouth.

I ask this without looking for a rim clearance on the cylinder as I'm too lazy at the moment to go open my safe.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Priest says; "sounds like this requires more than just swapping powders!"

It is not difficult, and the principles are simple.  READ THE DARKSIDERS DEN, and the child board THE DARK ARTS.  Also go to the 1911 and wild bunch board as there have been some recent threads on the Holy Black in the 1911.

Lubing the pistol itself is subject to discussion at present.  At least one shooter ran BP with the gun dry.  I'm not sure I would do that, but the proof is in the pudding!  READ!

Cleaning the barrel needs a change as well.  Avoid petroleum oils and cleaners, as the heavier products especially, leave a hard residue when mixed with BP fouling.  READ!

Lubing bullets requires a softer lube made up of usually organic ingredients.  The purpose is to leave a moist residue in the barrel to soften the powder residue.  commercial products are available.  My preference is SPG.  I also use Lyman Blackpowder Gold and even Bore Butter (the firmer type in a tub, not the squeeze tube - that one is for cap & ball revolvers)  Many shooters make their own, or even supply it and a recipe, like Dick Dastardly does.  READ!

The general process of working up a load is a lot different than with that fad powder.  A specific number of grains of a certain type of powder is only a guide, and one way to record your reloading data.  The principle is to fill the case with enough powder so that it is somewhat compressed when your bullet is seated.  LATER, you can explore refinements, like varying the amount of compression or the use of wads, if loading rifle cartridges.  Like DD suggests in using a LEE scoop of a specific size, BP is is loaded by volume, with weight only for comparison and record keeping.  READ!

I've only hit a few high spots.  READ!  AND ask questions if you can't readily find an answer or if the answer is confusing.  There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

Welcome to THE DARK SIDE!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Flint;  I have seen an article in either Issue 268 or 269 of HANDLOADER about revolvers and .45 ACP/cowboy special/.45 Auto Rim.

P.S;  HANDLOADER 269, Column "From The Hip'  by Brian Pearce. page 25, "Auto Rim Chambering and Headspace"  He discusses altering the .45 Auto cylinder of a RUGER Blackawk convertible so it accepts .45 Auto Rim.  It will still fire .45 Auto, which headspaces on the case mouth.  The .45 Special was designed to chamber and fire in the regular .45 Colt cylinder without any modification.  If you do choose to face off the .45 Auto cylinder to accept the .45 Special rim, the Auto case will still fire but not the Auto Rim case. I don't know how the .45 Auto cylinder on the Colt SAA is set up, but using the primary .45 Colt cylinder makes any alteration more or less pointless!

To check your cylinder, drop a .45 ACP round, or a case, into the cylinder.  If the base protrudes by the thickness of the rim it might work without alteration.  If it fits "flush" one fix is to have the rear of the cylinder altered to fit the .45 Cowboy Special rim.  The cylinder will still be usable with .45 ACP as that round headspaces on the case mouth.

Or you can just proceed to load and fire .45 ACP cases with blackpowder!  Cases are really cheap!

Oh, Yes!  The .45 Spl is the same length as the .45 ACP.

[Montana Slim]

Wow...got into a 1911 to shoot BP... that is certainly different.

I'd suggest 3F powder and as much as you can fit in the cartridge.

Then simply try it out. If it doesn't cycle the gun, you may need to try a lighter recoil spring.

Thats about it.

IMO, Much easier to get a Colt 3rd Model Dragoon, that will throw some flames and give a nice boom....plus, you load all your ammo on the gun...no brass to clean and reload.

Regards,
Slim

[Springfield Slim]

I didn't want to change springs so I just run a 250 grain 454190 bullet lubed with BP lube, and a case full of fffg. Works great in my old Colt 1911. I use it for Wild Bunch shoots.

[Blackpowder Burn]

I use Dick's 210 grain DD/PUK/ROAII bullet over 16.5 grains by weight of Goex FFFg in my Springfield GI.  It works fine with the standard spring and runs all day with no problems.

[priest]

ok, that means a....210 grain D&D bullet.....what the heck does /PUK/ROAII mean? and where do I get them outside of ordering a huge amount from the manufacturer?

or I can just use a 210 grain, hard cast, .452 round nose with the lube cavity. I think.

READ!

Roger that, sir. I did say that I know my usual methods need changing, I just would like advice on what to. The other boards, including the wild bunch and 1911 experts are way over my head. its like a hippie trying to read an Army TM, you know?

[Blackpowder Burn]

The DD/PUK/ROAII is the name of the bullet design sold by Dick Dastardly - trade named the Big Lube bullets you'll see referred to here a lot.  You'll find most black powder shooters cast bullets pretty soft - 20:1 or softer.  It makes sure the bullet fully obturates to fill the bore.  Dick has a link to his website in his comment earlier in this post.

You can order some of these bullets commercially from Springfield Slim.  He also posted an answer earlier in this string.  You can contact him through a PM from his post.

Both are great guys to deal with.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

4DeadlyDigits & Flint;  I have altered my post above about the .45 convertible cylinders.

Bottom line!  Just use the .45 Special in a regular .45 Colt cylinder.  Save the second cylinder for .45 ACP,  or .45 Auto Rim if its set up (or if you choose to spend money.)

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Uh - didn't he say his gun was a 1911?  No worry about 2nd cylinders or cases with rims there!  LOL!

Have fun!  A 1911 shooting big ol' boolits and spewing flames and lots-o-smoke will look something like a dragon breathing fire!  (See picture in above post)

One really important item has been mentioned but NOT emphasized ... you may very well have to get a lighter spring for the gun to function reliably.  I have never gotten one to cycle reliably ... but I've never had a lighter spring, either - mine are all 17-19 lb springs for full or +P loads.  That just don''t work well with the glorious Black Powder!

Now - Mr. Priest:  go out and get yourself a wheelgun in 45 Colt and try that BP in it.  You WON"T be sorry.  And, historically, the 45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) was made to achieve the same results (using smokeyless powder, not BP) as the original 45 Colt (sometimes called 45 Long Colt) round.

It works.  If you DO take my advice, and the revolver you get is a Colt Peacemaker (or Model P, or 1873) or one of the very nice Italian clones, you'll have the fun of having over 130 year's worth of Colt Forty-Fives!



By the way, tho' not a copy of a Colt, Ruger makes some FINE revolvers (Vaqueros), both Old Models as well as New Models, that look very much like the wonderful old Colts.  I have an Old Model Ruger Vaquero as well as an AWA Longhorn (a near exact copy of the old Colts) and they ARE FUN-FUN-FUN to shoot right along with my 2 1911A1- style autos!  It don't get much better than shooting 45s!!! (And if you get an Old Model Ruger, they're strong enough to make that old 45 Colt chambering something of a Magnum.)

Yee-Haa!!!

[pony express]

Priest, If you have access to some regular hard cast bullets for the .45 ACP, they should work ok, but you might consider cleaning the hard wax lube off of them, and hand lube with some regular BP lubes they have mentioned above.(never tried this myself, but I have heard of others doing it....using some kind of solvent to dissolve the lube that comes on the bullets.) But I expect Springfield Slim will sell you a reasonable quantity, that would be easier!

[Springfield Slim]

Forget the solvent, either boil the bullets or put them on a paper towel on a cookie sheet and put them in an oven set at 175 deg. The lube will melt right off. There are many bullets that will work fine in a 45 Auto as long as it is 200 grains or larger and has a decent point on the end for feeding.