Army surplus after the Civil War???

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Was there much "surplus" after the war?

Its been my understanding that some soldiers went home with their rifles and some of their supplies, but, I don't recall there being a turnover in either arms or such.

At least in any great quantity like we have today.

Hardtack was still shelved until the 1870s from the 1860s... If our gubmint was so stingy with moldy crackers, I gotta believe they were just as frugal with rifles and blankets.

[St. George]

St. George's Notes - XIX - 'Army Surplus'...
« on: July 17, 2006, 11:57:36 am »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This 'note' addresses a seldom-referred-to - but popular myth that there was a sort of thriving 'Army-Navy Surplus' sales system on the Frontier.

Far from it.

The Army - though it had won a long and bloody war - was left with the security of the Frontier and of the increasing stream of Emigrants opening up the West to contend with - and the Mission was woefully under-funded by an impecunious Congress who viewed the military as a drain on the economy.

There were mounds of equipment 'surplus to the needs' of the country - but there were also 'needs of the Service' to be met.

What better way to do that than to continue issue of already-paid-for uniforms and gear?

So - that's exactly what they did.

Granted - the many large cannon and much rolling stock - along with livestock - were sold, as was Government Whisky and numerous other 'stuff' - but that went to folks who were, for the most part - end users or brokers for same.

The average civilian didn't have the local Army-Navy Store - ala' a Bannerman's - until after the Spanish-American War.

Meanwhile, back at the Fort - troops on campaign were busily wearing out issue clothing at a furious rate and having it replaced with old, shoddy, Civil War stocks.

Then - there was another player in the game - the Bureau of Refugees, Freedmen and Abandoned Lands, often referred to as the Freedmen's Bureau, which was established in the War Department by an act of March 3, 1865.

The Bureau supervised all relief and educational activities relating to refugees and freedmen, including issuing 'rations, clothing and medicine'.

And where did they get 'those' things?

From the vast stockage still held by Uncle Sam.

Uniform and clothing items designated 'condemned' were given to this agency as well as others - though that title really only meant that there was no continued need for it or that it was in worn condition.

As an aside - the Bureau also assumed custody of confiscated lands or property in the former Confederate States and Border states, the District of Columbia and Indian Territory.

Never popular, and sometimes mis-managed - it was eventually disbanded after 1872.

By that time - the Uniforms were changing as well and the old stocks were depleted.

Could a civilian buy a rubber ground cloth or a blanket or canteens?

Certainly - in town - from a dealer in goods who would also buy from deserting or thieving soldiers.

As to other uniform items - not really, as the Quartermaster made no provision for it.

The soldier simply wasn't issued very much and what was issued as often of poor quality - thanks to the clothing contracts going to low bidders of the War.

He was also 'signed' for it and had to replace it out of pocket, should it go missing.

Not always the best option, for a man whose Congress may've forgotten to pay him for a couple of months.

Besides - better clothing was available at the Sutler's and in town.

Should you so desire - by all means, outfit your Impression with an old Army canteen and ground sheet - and a pullover shirt, as well.
And maybe a greatcoat, to boot - since there were enough of them floating around, heavy and cumbersome though they were, and besides - you could cut the bottom off, to better mount your horse.

You could've realistically bought them outright from your Supply Sergeant as you finished your enlistment - or from 'a guy in town' - but being able to walk into a store for a selection of those goods would be a few years in coming.

The Soldier - and the Army, itself - weren't looked upon fondly - unless needed.

Folks were tired of the War, and wanted fresh starts, and didn't want reminders.

Post-Civil War, the returning Veterans on both sides would wear what they were issued - but when it wore out - they went into a Dry Goods - or to a seamstress for their next outfit, and didn't look back, as they were too busy re-building America.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Trailrider]

There were provisions for Federal soldiers mustering out to purchase their issued firearms. A former neighbor's great-grandfather purchased his M1863 Springfield Rifle Musket for (IIRC...been a long time since I looked at the records) $8.00. The amount was either deducted from the final pay or bought by the soldier in cash, if he had any.

Obsolescent arms, such as the oddball breechloader carbines (Burnside, Starr, Merrill, etc.) that were no longer needed were surplussed out through Schuyler, Graham & Heartly in New York City, and thus were available for purchase by the civilian market, and some other outfits in IIRC St. Louis.

During the Indian Wars, it wasn't uncommon for a soldier or civilian employee of the QM Dept. to "lose" an item (rifle, pistol, water bucket, etc.) and have the amount deducted from his pay.  Also, it wasn't uncommon for troops taking "French leave" to abscond with their equipment and then sell them for drinks, food, etc., when they were far enough away from their posts where they wouldn't get caught...or sometimes did get caught!  M1873 Trapdoor carbines that survive today with their original carbine rear sights and the long-wrist, short comb stocks, probably left Army control by such means before they were modified/overhauled either in the field or by Ordnance in 1879.

[St. George]

No doubt things found their way off-Post in the manner you and I both describe.

Hell - they do, today - though weapons don't.

However - the topic deals with the concept of there being an 'Army-Navy Surplus Store' so that folks could stock up on ex-Army gear, like the Boy Scouts of my youth - and 'that' type of retailing would wait for Bannerman.

Any weaponry left with civilians was old stock.

Anything issued to contract employees was old stock - unless none existed - having been turned in when new equipment was drawn, signed-for and issued if available and if no soldier had need of it.

Serial numbers 'were' recorded at initial issue to the gaining unit and to the trooper being issued the serial-numbered equipment at unit level - but beyond that, the number wasn't entered in to the Supply Record of the individual on a 'regular' basis.

So - sometimes, it's more than possible to trace a firearm to the unit initially issued the piece - but no further.

Initials, carvings, et al., on a weapon were generally frowned upon by the Army - so those items so marked were sometimes marked by those who were 'not' soldiers, but were otherwise in possession of the weapon.

In general - the weapons issued to the Army (except for the revolvers) weren't desireable when placed side-by-side with commercial items - so few were 'lost' on purpose, since there were 'better' ones out there.

A single-shot Springfield Carbine didn't hold a candle to a lever-action rifle on the Plains...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Shotgun Franklin]

Hell - they do, today - though weapons don't.

Over 20 years ago I arrested a Deserter, the Army busted a gut getting to our lockup to get him back.
Seems he left his Post taking an M16 and 2 Hand Grenades.
Never heard what they did to, or with, him.

[St. George]

He likely went to the Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas - most definitely not a 'Club Fed' or 'Camp Cupcake' by any means at that time.

I put a handful of what would've been his cellmates in there, over time - he was probably their date.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Shotgun Franklin]

I got to thinking about this subject and remembered that very many Northern Troops, especially early in the war, were state Troops. I believe that they were more likely to take their issue stuff home with'm. I am sure that many people moving West after the war took whatever useful gear they had lying around with'm. If there was a supply of surplus these state Troops were more likely the source.

[JimBob]

Sales of military surplus has been going on since the Revolutionary War period.It was only in the post CW period that it started being organized to any extent.CW surplus sales started almost immediately upon the end of the war following an order issued by the War.Dept. on 28 April 1865 to start reducing expenses(sound familiar).

One early auction by the Office of the Assitant Quartermaster at Trenton Barracks Trenton,N.J. on 1 Jan,1866 among other goods listed the following-

38 Blankets
81 Inf.Uniform Coats-Private
5 Cav. Great Coats
16 Inf. Great Coats
9 Forage Caps
979 Canteens
1046 Haversacks
197 Camp Kettles
720 Mess Tins
25 Wall Tents
1769 1/2 Shelter Tents.

Post-CW tons of Civil War material were sold to the French at the time of the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71 by the government,in many cases being something that was in better condition than that issued the troops out west.One particular I remember was cases of new or arsenal rebuilt Spencer carbines being sold to France at a time when reports from the frontier were describing issued arms as being worn out and badly in need of repair or replacement.

[Tsalagidave]

Military surplus saw common use in the American  west both before and after the War of Secession. This is well documented both historically and archaeologically. Also, when in the CW armies, your clothing, haversack, blankets and knapsack were yours to keep. They were actually expensed as part of your personal account that covered pay and other forms of subsistence. Weapons, bayonets and their accouterments remained government property. There were cases where the soldiers were given the opportunity to purchase them upon ETS.  Also, companies like Hartley, Schuyler and Graham sold both surplus and new contract made arms, equipment, and uniforms. A. Good example of surplus sales was when the US Army flooded the market with surplus Spencer rifles and carbines at rock bottom prices. The Spencer arms company could not compete with these prices against their new stock and was literally put out of business by its own product.

[Oregon Bill]

My great-grandfather made a note in his Civil War diaries that he bought his McClellan saddle upon mustering out of the Third Wisconsin Volunteer Cavalry. He was a harness maker after the war.

[Fox Creek Kid]

As St. George stated, the Military played their cards close to their vest immediately after the war. It was only in 1870 that they loosened their grip on some Spencer carbines to the CO Militia. They auctioned off some of the clunker arms in the late 1860's but none of the good stuff. It was only the beginning of the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 that they really opened the armouries, and that had more to do with political bribery than goodwill. It has always been my belief that Schuyler, Hartley & Graham resorted to outright bribery in order to gain access to 'needle' guns and other assorted goodies that were off limits to sell at that time.

[Bibbyman]

I read about any account of Louis and Clark expedition.   On their return to St. Louis,  they auctioned off their surplus equipment.   It sure would be something to run across an item linked to their expedition.

[Stu Kettle]

I read about any account of Louis and Clark expedition.   On their return to St. Louis,  they auctioned off their surplus equipment.   It sure would be something to run across an item linked to their expedition.

Especially one of those air rifles.