Reloading process and suggestions for first time BPCR reloader

[Silverynhawk]

Hi Folks:

I am new to the site and to black powder cartridge rifle reloading altogether. As I write this I have 46 shells for my 45/60 sitting on the reloading bench with powder and bullets waiting to go.  I have been getting a lot of information, some of it conflicting, on how to go about loading BP cartridges.

I need some suggestions. Could you walk me through your reloading processes?  I have been reloading smokeless shells for several years.  I just need processes specific to black powder. 

I have materials for a drop tube in the shop waiting to be assembled as well as a compression plug adapter I can fit in my drill press.

Do I need a protective barrier between powder and primer?

Do I need a wad between bullet and powder? What materials have worked the best for you?

How much compression are you using?

Does the powder have to be compressed to the point I can't hear the powder when I shake the shell?

Thanks.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Silverynhawk ,

You need a good reloading manual.  I recommend the Lyman black powder manual.  Much of what you need to know is in there.  I will add that you need bullets that carry enough black powder lube that the fouling stays soft and doesn't build up between strings.

Do I need a protective barrier between powder and primer?
No.  None needed here.

Do I need a wad between bullet and powder? What materials have worked the best for you?
  I prefer a Circle Fly over powder card here.

How much compression are you using?
I compress till the case bulges some and then back off a bit.

Does the powder have to be compressed to the point I can't hear the powder when I shake the shell?
See above.

Others will jump in here, but it will serve you well to get close up and personal with a BPCR shooter and learn first hand.

Welcome to the Darkside.

DD-DLoS

[Deadeye Dick]

Silverynhawk,
As you will note many of us have different reloading techniques.
I don't use an over the powder card. I don't think one is needed. I just put the bullet right on top of the powder. Never been a problem for me.
I compress the powder 1/16 to 1/8 inch. The idea is to take the air space out of the powder area. I load primarily 44-40 and if you over compress the load it could bulge the case which may cause the cartridge not to chamber properly.
I don't use a drop tube, but I don't shoot long range large capacity cartridges either. 44-40 doesn't require it. 45-70 and other large capacity cartridges may require it. I'll let other pard's address this item.
Hope this helps you,
Deadeye Dick
 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I can't recall who I pinched this link from, but here it is;

http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf

Here's another;

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm

And, of course, prowl around in BROW and The Dark Arts.

[Ranch 13]

Blackpowder reloading isn't all that much different from smokeless loading.

Don't fret compression. Pick the powder you want put the charge you want in the case and compress it enough so that the bullet is in firm contact with the powder. If you have a set of lyman dies with the M die or the Rcbs legacy dies the "expander" die or the M die will work fine for a compression plug. I use a seperate expander to flare the case mouth then charge the case, put a fiber wad on top of the powder and run the case into the M/expander die to the correct depth. You'll have to spend a bit of time finding the how far to mash the powder.
Drop tubes really not necessary, if dumping charges from a powder thrower, simply turn the handle down slowly letting the powder trickle from the rotor into the case. If you're dumping the powder charge into a scale pan etc, just hold the pan a few inches above the funnel and pour slowly.
Fiber wads .030 thick are a good place to start, some loads I prefer the .060 fiber wads.
Bottom line reloading blackpowder cartridges isn't that big of a deal, just keep the bullet in firm contact with the powder and you're good to go.

[john boy]

Hawk, here's a write up I did for a fella that was new to reloading his 50-70:

Case Preparation
•    Anneal the mouth of the cases to the seating depth of the bullet  – 650/680 degrees ( bluish/green color using a propane torch) Dunk the case immediately in a bucket of ice water
•   Full length size the cases ... Not a absolute step to be performed – use a case lube
•   Chamfer the mouth of the case with a 22 degree chamfering reamer ... to remove any burrs
•   Square the primer pockets with a pocket reamer ... provides for proper seating of the primer
•   Deburr the flash hole with a flash hole reamer ... removes flash hole burrs for better primer ignition to the powder charge
•   Size the mouth of the case using an M Die or Expander Plug for 0.001 to 0.002 neck tension so there is a very slight bell on the mouth to all the base of the bullet to be seated ½ way into the case
NOTE:  Case length trimming (not absolutely necessary unless cases exceed the SAMMI case length a lot.  VERY IMPORTANT:  Do not trim any cases until AFTER they have been fireformed

Determining Extended COL of Loaded Round
•   Drop the bullet into the chamber and tap the base with the eraser of a pencil
•   Using a caliper, measure from the base of the seated bullet to the rim of the chamber (A)
•   Measure the length of the bullet (B)
•   Add A + B  = C
•   Measure seated depth of the bullet in the case (D)
•   C – D = Extended COL of the round

Measuring Powder Charge Height
•   Measure the distance from the top of the settled powder to the mouth of the case
•   Determine how much you want to compress the powder column
•   Adjust your compression die to the required length to achieve the amount of compression you want. 
o   NOTE:  Adjusting the compression die requires ... Fiddling – do it in small steps

Charging the Cases
•   Primers:  Favored primers are:  CCI BR2 and Federal GM210M (LR Match)
•   Insert an Over the Primer Wad – 0.10 to 0.20 construction paper ... punched out using a 45-70 wad punch
•    Charge the case using a drop tube with the desired number of grains.  The powder charge can also charged directly from the charger and then settled using a vibrator
•   Compress the powder to the desired depth using a compression plug ... http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4086.html
•   Insert wad using a dowel rod.  Types of wads that can be used:
o   O.030 or 0.060 LDPE – 0.030 to 0.060 fiber wad – hard felt wad (lubed or not lubed) – jute wad under the LDPE or fiber wad – newspaper – wax paper ... separately or in any of the wad  combinations
•   Insert lubed bullet (450 or 500gr) into the case using:
o   Seating die
o   Finger seated which is the preferred method
•   Apply a very light crimp on the case to ONLY to remove the bell on the case

TEST THE LOADED ROUND IN THE CHAMBER SO THAT IT ONLY TAKES THUMB PRESSURE TO SEAT THE ROUND
DONE

Doesn't answer all your specific questions but the other fella have pretty much answered them for you

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

John Boy has given you a pretty complete description of loading rifle cartridges for BPCR.

A few of us don't quite go through as precise a process as he does. But he can probably shoot rings around me.

He is correct, you will have to experiment with how much powder and how much compression works best for you and your rifle.

Personally, when loading 45-70 I use a .030 card wad between my powder and my bullet. I do not do so when loading for CAS.

The very best book on the subject is Mike Venturino's Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West. Although Mike does not include the 45-60 among the cartridges in the book, the techniques for loading all the old large caliber Black Powder cartridges are basically the same. Mike's book has a chapter on general reloading of all the old cartridges, and another chapter on the tricks used by the champions. I cannot recommend this book highly enough.

http://www.mlventerprises.com/buffalogun.htm

[john boy]

Hawk, you were looking for some compression numbers ... read this

the Black Powder Cartridge News -2009 Fall - "Some Black Powder Compression Data" article by Bob Woodfill:
Caliber - 45-70
Lyman 457124
Constant volume of FFg powder used
Compression tested: 0" - 1/8" - 1/4" - 3/8" and 1/2"
Best 3 Shot Groups 100yds ... 5 shot groups were tested also, with the same compression values except for Goex (1/4") and Schuetzen (1/2")
Goex - 0.62" with 1/8" compression
Goex Express - 0.26" with 1/4" compression
Schuetzen - 0.61" with 1/4" compression
Swiss - 0.56" with 1/2" compression
KIK - 0.65" with 0" compression

[Silverynhawk]

Thanks guys. I got to load some rounds for the rifle last week using Goex FFG and American Pioneer Powder FFG (a substitute). Dad videotaped me shooting one of each here at the house. He wanted to record it for posterity in case the rifle knocked me on my posterior  Everything went well with minimal drama. I even managed to hit the target, an empty one quart metal can, with both shots. I think the range was 50 yards, but it probably was less than 40 by the time I got in line with a decent backstop.

[Grapeshot]

Thanks guys. I got to load some rounds for the rifle last week using Goex FFG and American Pioneer Powder FFG (a substitute). Dad videotaped me shooting one of each here at the house. He wanted to record it for posterity in case the rifle knocked me on my posterior  Everything went well with minimal drama. I even managed to hit the target, an empty one quart metal can, with both shots. I think the range was 50 yards, but it probably was less than 40 by the time I got in line with a decent backstop.

Here's another thread to read.  CASCITY has a board for the 1876 Winchesters.http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17945.0.html