Indian Wars military flap hoslter,,a question ?

[Marshal Deadwood]

I know that standard military holsters were right side, butt forward..but was there even any left side butt forwards used during the Indian War time frame ?

Just curious as I'm thinking about purchasing one.

Marshal Deadwood

[Drydock]

Used?   well, yes and no.  There are pictures of TR wearing just such a holster,  late in the period, but there.  But its really a right side holster, that could be worn butt to the rear on the left if desired  The military never issued such a holster, but many private purchased their own for field use. 

[liten]

wear it the side suits you  but the butt has to be out you cant change that ! the left side is far better for the right handed  i think,  paul percival of custom leather makes a good one and with the different loops to suit yr belt ,be it prairie or leather belt

[Trailrider]

Officially, no.  The standard for belt holsters for revolving pistols during and after the Civil War, and up until adoption of the Pattern 1912 holster for the M1911 semi-auto pistol, was gun butt-forward on the righthand side.

HOWEVER...during the Indian Wars period, a fair number of rigs were submitted to the Ordnance Dept. by officers at the various posts in the West. Some of these were butt-rear with or without flaps.  Capt. Edmond G. Fechet, commanding Co. G, 8th Cavalry, sometime in the early 1880's, for example, submitted an open-top, butt-rear holster with a long skirt that fastened to the holster's pouch by a narrow strap.  The holster also had cartridge loops around the top (probably NOT the safest idea when re-holstering the gun).  He apparently had his Saddler Sgt. William Miller fabricate enough to equip his whole company, or so he implied in his letter of submittal to Ordnance.

Several holsters with the flap, but butt-rear, such as the Ropes pattern, a butt-rear holster which was a modification of the Forsythe Pattern were also submitted to Ordnance, and the department itself made a few for field trials...none of which were adopted as standard.

Additionally, there are even photos of a 6th Cav trooper leading his horse.  He his wearing a civilian Mexican-loop holster and a leather cartridge belt, right side butt rear.

Since few, if any troops or officers wore two pistols, it is unknown how they might have worn the second gun.  Troops in the field, including both enlisted and officers were pretty loosey-goosey as to clothing and equipment.  Basically, if you could afford it, make it, buy it or have the Saddler make it for you, it was okay.

Ref.: Edward Scott Meadows' "U.S. Military Holsters and Pistol Cartridge Boxes"

[liten]

they use to just stick it in the front of there belt if they had a second pistol, a bit crude  but it worked  ( 3rd cav image)

[River City John]

There are many pics of field modified holsters where the flap has been removed and pistol worn right side butt facing to rear.

Several of 10th Cav Troopers come to mind.
I took my CW military flap and cut off the flap and remolded for my Remington Conversion worn butt to the rear on right side.
It actually gives a slight forward cant that helps long barrel clear leather better, and looks just like the historical pics.

RCJ

[Texas Lawdog]

My GG uncle cut the flap off his miltary holster after his hitch in the IW, to carry his 51 Navy. He made some decorative cuts on the leather. I still have about 99 % of that holster as well as the 51 Navy(matching serial #s on all parts).

[Pitspitr]

they use to just stick it in the front of there belt if they had a second pistol, a bit crude  but it worked  ( 3rd cav image)

Not questioning that this was done, but a caveat should be placed here if this was a studio photo. Most photographers kept studio props and inserted them in portraits for affect. One needs to be careful about assuming that this particular individual carried his sidearm this way on a daily basis. Also friends sometimes borrowed each others clothing for studio portraits. (like teen-aged girls sometimes do today for photos) There is a photo of Texas Jack Omohoundro (sp?) wearing a coat that is documented to have belonged to Buffalo Bill Cody and is currently in the Cody Museum.

[liten]

pistol in the belt is a out on patrol image,  mind  the individual is the only one, all his mates  pistols are holsterd and on the right, but they do seem to carry the holster more to front than side

[Lastcigar]

I purchased a repro Ropes holster from The Sutler (UK) and use it as my standard holster.  Its great.  Had a bit of a problem with the vendor but once I got it I wounldn't trade it for anything.

[Hangtown Frye]

Actually the first "Pistol Cases" issued by the Army to the Cavalry for the Navy Colts were right hand, butt-to-the-rear full-flap style in the mid-1850's.  However, they weren't considered quite a success, and by the Civil War they were all butt-forward. One of the reasons for this (probably the primary reason) is that with a long-barreled revolver it's MUCH easier to draw it from a holster worn high on the waist with a reversed wrist.  Can't do that so well with a butt-to-the-rear style holster.

BTW, it has nothing to do with being able to draw it with the left hand while holding the sabre in the right.  The sidearms were used one at a time. The left hand is for the reins...

Cheers!

Gordon

[Trailrider]

the butt out on the right side must been thought up by a left handa surely , for the right handed its  rather painful extraction and as for getn it out in a hurry  on a galloping horse

Actually, not! When I used to go hunting and packed back into the mountains horseback, I always packed my sixgun in a butt-forward holster on my right (stronghand) side.  I used a half-flap with a thumbbreak, but carried a spare full flap that could replace the thumb-break (by means of screwposts on the back of the holster) if the weather got bad.  Even with the full flap, drawing the gun was no problem.  The reason I started using the butt-forward carry in the first place is that I frequented places in Montana and Wyoming that also tended to be frequented by "Ol' Ephraim", and the butt-forward carry allows you to get at the gun with either hand.  Even if you are down on the ground on your right side, the gun can be drawn with the left hand.  Fortunately, I never had to find out how effective a .44 Mangle-em is against griz, but did use it for the coup de gras on a Shiras moose one time.  Never did have to draw from a galloping horse, but then the Cavalry seldom did either, as they fought mostly dismounted.  If in a "forager's charge" (on horseback with the pistol drawn) they usually drew the gun first before lining out.  Lt. Foster, Co. I, 3rd Cav, conducted a forager's charge against the Lakota at the Rosebud fight in 1876.  Didn't mention anyone losing their pistol in his report.

Oh, the holster is the #961-TB/FF Trailrider model from Trailrider Products. 

Merry Christmas to all, and a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year.

[Major 2]

My GG uncle cut the flap off his miltary holster after his hitch in the IW, to carry his 51 Navy. He made some decorative cuts on the leather. I still have about 99 % of that holster as well as the 51 Navy(matching serial #s on all parts).

I'd love to see that 51 & holster...I'll settle for photo's and maybe a gander at it at the NCOWS Convention

[Drydock]

Yep, Fryes got it right.  Properly worn high on the waist, with the proper forward cant the military specified, Butt forward is a much easier draw.  And easily available to both hands.

[liten]

 

[Texas Lawdog]

Major, I'll be flying up to the Convention and I am afraid to try to bring it up there on the plane. I will bring the holster. I am in the process of getting a new camera, so maybe I can take some pictures of it and get them posted.

[Dr. Bob]

Just personal experience here!  Last season [2010] I wore an Indian War Officers 1872 Fatigue Blouse and a Mod. 1872 flap holster [with the cleaning rod pocket & rod] with my 1872 Open Top [Uberti] in 44 Colt [shot 44 Russian]  I am no speed demon, but with a modicum of practice, the revolver came out easily and safely.  I am right handed and shoot right handed.  I wear in on a saber belt which is high on my waist.  The Open Top has a 7 1/2 in bbl. and is not hard to draw for me.  I am 5' 6" tall and have short legs [28" inseam].  I got the holster from David Carrico and it is a beauty, made from detailed pictures of an original.  David is great to work with!!!

[cpt dan blodgett]

Just personal experience here!  Last season [2010] I wore an Indian War Officers 1872 Fatigue Blouse and a Mod. 1872 flap holster [with the cleaning rod pocket & rod] with my 1872 Open Top [Uberti] in 44 Colt [shot 44 Russian]  I am no speed demon, but with a modicum of practice, the revolver came out easily and safely.  I am right handed and shoot right handed.  I wear in on a saber belt which is high on my waist.  The Open Top has a 7 1/2 in bbl. and is not hard to draw for me.  I am 5' 6" tall and have short legs [28" inseam].  I got the holster from David Carrico and it is a beauty, made from detailed pictures of an original.  David is great to work with!!!

Wow are you my long lost twin brother with 1 inch shorter legs???

[Dr. Bob]

Might be!  Are ya rich??