KIK & Diamondback in the 44-40

[w44wcf]

Pards,
I did some testing of two, new to me, black powders in my .44-40 Marlin Cowboy rifle (24") recently.
Since I am more of a traditionalist and also need the best accuracy out to 200 meters for the NRA Cowboy Silhouette Game, I used the vintage 427098 two lube grooved 44-40 bullet to see if either of these powders would equal the "non foul out" capabilities of SWISS using that bullet.

DD's "Big Lube" bullet has the advantage in that it will run many shots without fouling out with ANY black powder whereas the 427098 won't, but does provide better accuracy at longer distances for repeated shots (100+ yards) IF the right b.p. is used. In my experience to date, SWISS has been the only powder that will not foul out in many shots with the 427098.    

Bullet-
427098 /.429" diameter (I should call it the 429098) / 11 BHN and lubed with SPG.
Weight-
215 grs. (The early 44-40 bullet was 217 grs. and the 44 WCF used a 200 gr. bullet).
Cases / primers-
R-P / 300 CCI

I began the testing with KIK powder in 2F and also 1 1/2F. I was a bit encouraged having read that KIK uses the same type of charcoal that SWISS does (Alder Buckthorn) but they may process it differently.  I would have also liked to test 3F, but Powder Inc. does not expect any in until late July.  

I loaded 15 rounds each (30 total) with 40.0 grs, of each powder by weight and fired them all without cleaning. I was very pleasantly surprised that the fouling was fairly light and similar to SWISS in appearance and that good accuracy was maintained throughout with no "foul out" in the 24" barrel.  Next, I will load 50 rounds to see if the accuracy and fouling level can be maintained. Target showing a 10 shot group......


I cleaned the barrel and repeated the test with Diamondback 2F & 3F. Accuracy was decent for about 15 rounds and then degraded rapidly which is similar to what happens when using GOEX with the 427098.

DD's "Big Lube" Mav Dutchman runs fine with Goex so I would expect it to do the same with Diamondback which is currently the most reasonably priced mainstream black powder at $10/lb.
http://www.blackpowderva.com/
     
average velocities:
40.0 / KIK 1 1/2F / 1,161 f.p.s.
40.0 / KIK 2F / 1,255 f.p.s.
40.0 / Diamondback 2F / 1,144 f.p.s.
40.0 / Diamondback 3F / 1,210 f.p.s.

As I am able to test more (50) 427098 loaded 44-40 cartridges with KIK powder, I will post the results.

w44wcf        
   

[john boy]

I loaded 15 rounds each (30 total) with 40.0 grs, of each powder by weight and fired them all without cleaning. I was very pleasantly surprised that the fouling was fairly light and similar to SWISS in appearance and that good accuracy was maintained throughout with no "foul out" in the 24" barrel.  Next, I will load 50 rounds to see if the accuracy and fouling level can be maintained.

I'd like to add to w44wcf's post about foul in the new 2010 lot of KIK ...

Here's a test that I performed with a 38-55:
Uberti 38-55
19 May 2011
Full Cloud Cover (not raining )

Ideal 375166 - 1:20 - 325gr
Starline 2.125 annealed
Primer - CCI-LR
42gr charge for each powder grade
Dry felt wad

2010 KIK - 1 1/2Fg Socked
Temperature - 66 F
Relative Humidity - 68%
Avg Velocity - 1086 fps
SD - 11.5

2010 KIK -FFg
Temperature - 66 F
Relative Humidity - 67%
Avg Velocity - 1119 fps
SD -23

Then I proceeded to shoot the remaining 40 rounds from the Rams to the Chickens with previous settings on the rifle. No change needed for the settings and the load performed with excellent accuracy

I did not blow tube or wipe the bore shooting the 40 rounds! There was absolutely no degradation in accuracy. Here\'s the patches: 1 wet with water and remainders dry ...



As  for the foul from the bore, here's a companion test I did with the new 2010 KIK :
Purpose:
* To determine the dried weight of the foul as a percentage of the original charge ... is potassium bicarbonate and any unburned charcoal
* To look at the patches to observe the size of any charcoal that was not expelled with the ignition gas.
... Small finely ground charcoal= good stuff, better ignition
... Large pieces of charcoal = inferior grinding and impedes good ignition. In some powders, remain nameless to protect the guilty, I have seen charcoal in the foul that looked like \'logs\'

Dried Patch % and Charcoal Observation
Fg
3.4gr/72gr of original charge = 4.72%
Charcoal = \'fine dust\' and more than 1.5Fg or FFg
1.5Fg
3.5gr/70gr of original charge = 5.0%
Charcoal = \'fine dust\' and less than FFg but more than Fg

FFg
2.4gr/68gr of original charge = 2.4%
Charcoal = \'fine dust\' and least amount of the 3 grades
Wet Patches Picture


Dried Patches in Oven @ 250F

Notice that the FFg (far right) wet patch looks \'cleaner\' that the Fg (far left) or the 1.5Fg (middle)
Conclusion:
1. Due to the grain size ratios, the FFg powder burns cleaner than the other 2 grades
2. The majority of the charcoal is expelled with the ignition gas, being of fine micron size indicating that it is combusted upon ignition
3. Looks like FFg is the better grade than the other two: less bicarbonate and unburned charcoal.

[Mako]

Good report John...

Thanks,
Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

The first batch of KIK in country circa. '99 was garbage. The 2nd batch was "GOEXesque" and it appears this new lot is fantastic. I keep reading nothing but great stuff about it. Thanks for the great report. 

[john boy]

Kid, I wasn't aware that KIK was imported into the US in ~ 1999.  The lots that I am aware of are: 2004 - 2007 and the latest, 2010.
The 2004 and 2007 lots left a lot to be desired as for being 'quality' powder.  I have both and use these lots for CAS only.  As for the quality of the 2010 lot, yes Skupina KIK Kamnik d d, formally owned by the Slovenian govt, that went into bankruptcy has turned the corner with better processing of their powders.  KIK is still in bankruptcy, in receivership and privately owned now

I have to Tip My Hat to my good friend and fellow shooter, w44wcf.  We have spent many days together exploring the various aspect determining neat 'stuff' of what bullets and powder can and won't do.  His latest test of KIK in his 44-40 Marlin is an example of the detail depth of his testing.  Thus far, the only target group testing has been by a few BPCR gents across the US.  w44wcf's 44-40 testing is The First for a CAS caliber.  He competes in many of the NRA Lever Silhouette matches so his testing is important

I believe that with more shooters of both sports, CAS and BPCR, shooting the different grades of 2010 KIK with good results ... it will become the GO TO powder for both sports

[Fairshake]

Excellent postings by John and John Boy. This does indeed give reason to try the new Kik powder. I will say this to w44wcf about the 427098 about which he knows everything. John, I don't know if you remember when you and I were talking about this very problem a few years back. That is the reason I had the Custom mould made by Accurate moulds in Utah. The lube grooves made wider and deeper to take more lube than the Lyman moulds that are being made now. I also tried loading two groups with a lube made in Alaska called Nasa and my own lube made with tallow. I was only able to test with the Diamondback powder and received very good results. Have you tried the brass mould bullets ?I know you only use the SPG lube so I will not inquire about it. I have been unable to shoot any since February because of my implanted infusion pump. I have pulled two test in the past two weeks that were very painful because of my position I was put in and could not move. One test lasted 2 1/2 hours and the other 1 1/2 hours. I was not able to move one inch and my back turned a deep black and blue color. They think my pump may have closed over and is putting the medicine (Dilaudid) in the wrong area. We have had matches 3 times a month and I have not attended.

[Pony Racer]

I have never used KIK powder but I have used Diamond Back (DB) FFG at SASS matches.

I have used in 38spl for my 1873 carbine and my 44 Russian 1872's

With DB and blackpowder lubed bullets from both Parson Delcroix (Parson Pills) and and 38 spl 158 grain DD Big Lube bullets from Slim I have had nothing but great results in matches.  Shooting at least 4 matches where twice I had "no miss" matches (does not sound right to say "shot clean" when shooting BP:))

The other two matches i had 1-2 misses the whole match.

I will say that I use mostly Scheutzen still for my pistol and rifle since I prefer that powder and have used it for years; however, the DB will be my powder of choice for shotgun and I would not shy away from it for my rifle and pistol.


I will agree DB was dirtier than Scheutzen but it did not affect accuracy or cause anymore fouling/binding that would affect the operations of my cowboy weapons.


Thanks for the excellent report w44wcf!:)

PR

[john boy]

PR, as for Diamondback, I only have 2 cans of it for testing.  The FFg and FFFg
Yo want to talk about dirty powder ... well, the Chinese firecracker powder, Skirmish, is the worst IMHO.  I use it for my CAS shotgun loads.  Even produces fire from the burning charcoal coming out the bores 
Revolver and rifle reloads - KIK, lots 2004 and 2007.  When that is gone, next will be the Goex FFg and FFFg until it's G-O-N-E too.  The Goex CTG shoots well in my BPCR reloads.  So ain't gonna waste it on CAS reloads because it's been discontinued along with Cowboy which I never shot

[Fox Creek Kid]

...along with Cowboy which I never shot

I shot a can or two of GOEX Cowboy and it was nothing special. I still say GOEX FFg shoots more accurately than FFFg for CAS.

[Pony Racer]

FCK - i agree for cartridges. I have noticed no difference in my 38 loads using FFG in accuracy but I seem to get less fouling - which i guess means "better burn"...none of this is scientific mind you just my experiences shooting the both FFFG and FFG.

I don't shoot C&B's enough to have an opinion of FFFG vice FFG but could see that maybe in 31 and 36 caliber C&B's that people might want to have FFFG.

So how is that special OT working for you - I had the pleasure of seeing it redone - is it working as you wanted?

PR

[Fox Creek Kid]

...So how is that special OT working for you - I had the pleasure of seeing it redone - is it working as you wanted?

PR

To be honest I haven't even shot it yet.    Too busy with other stuff.

[w44wcf]

Fairshake,
Thank you for the kind words. I have used the 3 Cavity Accurate mold a few times now and it works very well.  Currently I have cartridges loaded with it to try and match the 30 shot Doc Pardee target of 1875.

I have used some NASA and have ordered more. To this point, in the 44-40 and 45 Colt it seems to work on par with SPG but I will be doing some additional testing........   

Very sorry to hear about your ongong back problem.

w44wcf