Just purchased a 44-40 of 1889 vintage from Track, question...

[Hombre]

Most people tell me I should only use black powder in my pre '90 44-40.  Would it be alright to use Trail Boss in this Winchester?
The Hodgdon guide lists 5.5g. of TB at723 Fps with 7,800 PSI for the 44-40 with a 200g. bullet.  Ant thoughts?

Hombre

[SGT John Chapman]

Just me but I wouldn't even use BP substitutes.......

[litl rooster]

Hombre that load will work.  I am more inclined to be on the good Sgt's side of thinking though

[Short Knife Johnson]

I had read somewhere (not on the internet) that the problem with smokeless loads (with pressures within BP specs) in black powder era guns is that the longer burn time of smokeless will strain the metals over time.  I had cooked up some loads for my original '73, Whitney-Kennedy - both in .44 WCF - and my '93 Marlin .38-55 (with a smokeless action but a BP barrel screwed on).  I actually phoned Lyman and talked with a tech there.  Told him what I was doing and with what guns, powders, primers and bullet alloys.  He assured me it was A-OK to go ahead, even about my concerns about longer burn times wouldn't stress the steel.  I ran a few rounds through them all, but eventually lost my nerve with images of blown up guns dancing through my head.


So I think I'm going to stick with good old GOEX.  I don't doubt it can be done safely and that shooters are doing it.  But if I do blow one up and still retain all of my digits, I can't look down my nose at a certain Montana resident who almost made a sport out of turning valuble antiques inside-out.    Not naming names, but fans of Mike V. know who it is. 

[Arizona Trooper]

Both the Whitney and Marlin are A LOT stronger than a '73 Winchester. I have been shooting light smokeless loads in my Whitney for years with no signs of trouble. One time I accidentally ran a couple '92 Winny loads (44-40) through it. The only clue was the very impressive chronograph numbers. When three in a row came in very fast, I decided it was not a chrony issue and quit shooting them. There were no signs of problems with the brass or the gun. However, I would never do that again. Black powder is the safest way to go.   

[Drydock]

Actualy, its the other way around.   BP has a much SLOWER burn rate than CONTAINED smokeless powder.  BP has a very low pressure peak, with relativly iniffecent gas generation.  THus it is much gentler on weapons than smokeless.  Smokeless has a reltivly high peak, occuring immidiatly after ignition, with greater gas generation per charge weight.  

And no,  BP does not "Explode" in the case.  Its a slow progressive burn rear to front, with burning powder following the bullet down the barrel.  The "slugging up" talked about is caused by the efficent transfer of force from the detonation of the primer, through the solid mass of the powder, to the base of the bullet.

This is a very common misconception perpetuated by modern gun writers who should know better . . .

[Hombre]

Well it looks like I'll buy a few boxes of Black Dawge 44-40 to get started.  I do have one important question though...what is a
good, relatively easy method to clean an 1873 third model Winchester?  The best I have heard of is a bore snake from BAC soaked
in a Ballistol water mix.  Help!!!

Hombre

[Short Knife Johnson]

I just turn mine upside down in the rifle vice and clean from the muzzle with a guide in place.  Have a dish under the action to catch the crud.  Also, I made a "bore bong" using a length of tubing, a spent case, and a funnel.  I pour hot soapy water through the bore to loosen things up, then commence to cleaning.  It takes half the amount of patches that way.

That said, the value of a bore snake is not lost on me.

[Arizona Trooper]

Turn it upside down with the breech open and a wad of paper towel in the action to catch any soapy water that may run the wrong way. Tip the gun about 45 degrees with the lever to the top and not much water will try to get into the action. If you have a gun cradle, put it in there upside down with the breech open and cleaning is a snap.

[Short Knife Johnson]

If you don't have a gun cradle, just buy one.  Or make one.  It's one of those things that will change you rlife.    Like my Black and Decker Workmate.  It gets used for just about everything from casting bullets, portable loading table, waxing snowboards, to even being a platform for my... you guessed it... rifle cradle.

[Hombre]

I have a gun cradle.  Seems like a good system.  I'LL give it a try after I get my ammo.  Thank you.

Hombre

[Short Knife Johnson]

Now, the brass needs to be deprimed and soaked (then shaken) in warm (if possible) dishsoapy water fairly soon after firing.  Ideally tumbled in ceramic media, but I used to use corncob in a vibratory.  Do NOT mix .44-40 brass with anything heavier.  My .45-90 cases wrecked a bunch on me when I thought I'd be smart  , and also don't overcrowd the tumbler as dented case mouths will result.

[Montana Slim]

IMO, The biggest risk in use of smokeless is to double-charge a supposed light load and creating a dangerously high pressure load.
I hear TB is pretty bulky and maybe that helps.

For clean-up procedures, take my advice in the following thread:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,32273.0.html

If your bore is rough....cleanup from BP won't be quite as smooth as from a new manufactured rifle...BTW, my old 73 had a rough bore so I had it relined...very good shooter and cleans like a dream...now, someday I need to fit new toggle pins as the gun has apparently been shot a LOT over the past 130 years.

Regards,
Slim