Websters dictionary of leather terms

[Slowhand Bob]

After an interesting conversation with some SASS cowpokes recently concerning holster terms/definitions, Ill ask you guys.  What would be your definition of what constitutes a California Slim Jim holster?  What is THE separator between it and the Mexican Loop?  My position was the belt loop, I said it would have to be completely made from a separate piece of leather and attached.  With that said I will readily admit that there are many holsters out there that break this rule.  Basically my position was that when one folds the belt loop over from the holster top and sews/rivets or otherwise attaches it at the bottom it is no longer a Slim Jim, though many outfits market such.  I have found that many times there is not a cut and dry definition of many leather terms and I do not think there is a tenable and definite answer here but perhaps someone has information I have missed.  Remember, any recently published books would require that the author offer more than opinion. 

[Dalton Masterson]

I would have to say its more of the absence of the skirt that makes it a slim jim.

But then you also end up with the different varieties you speak of, with separate loops, a single piece of leather with enough leather to fold over and make a loop, etc.
Maybe these differences in belt loops are more of a regional type. If thats the case, then I would say you are right that a CA slim jim would be 2 separate pieces of leather to make the loop.
Interesting question SB!
DM

[Cliff Fendley]

I think of a Slim Jim to have a completely separate loop on the back although you see many today with a loop folder over and just attached at the bottom. I've had some people tell me they were a transition holster but from pictures and originals I've been able to study this folded over flap was not the norm in the 19th century and almost all had a completely separate loop. From studying old gun leather I have not been able to identify this so called transition between Slim Jim styles and the invent of the Mexican loop. Almost all seem to be one way or the other.

The Slim Jim is basically a military flap holster with the flap removed. At least if you study old pieces you can see that transition in the civilian gun leather.

For it to be a Mexican loop the loop is created by the skirt or flap folding over the top but is not attached to the pouch but rather the pouch is slid through one or more loops. The loops can be integral loops cut into the skirt or separate loops sewn or riveted to the skirt.

The Mexican loop holster was the advent of the western saddlers for a holster with a large loop that would accommodate the cartridge belts that gained popularity with the cartridge revolvers. Until then cartridge belts were used for rifle cartridges and many were worn as a bandoleer.

Anyone interested in the history of gun leather should really consider getting the book "Packing Iron". It is the most informative publication I have ever seen walking you through the development of gun leather from early military and civilian gun leather through the development of the Mexican loop and even into the Hollywood buscadaro rigs.

Chuck Burrows may chime in and is one person I would consider an expert in this area from his many years of studying the history of the craft.

[Cliff Fendley]

To clarify above, the holsters with a folded over top flap but sewn which some may refer too as a transition holster is still referred to as a California pattern or Slim Jim holster. The few original examples could be considered a late California holster.

This transition style holster were apparently few and possibly just within certain makers. I've only seen maybe one and there may be a couple pictures of them in Packing Iron. Ben Varga (sp?)of I believe San Antonio was the maker of the only one I've seen and it's in a private collection.

In short if the lower part of the belt loop is permanently attached to the pouch it's a Slim Jim or California pattern holster.  It's a Mexican loop if the pouch slides through some sort of loop to secure the pouch to the flap or skirt.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I agree with Dalton and Cliff that the California, or Slim Jim holster, has to have a separate, sewn on loop. The Mexican loop has the loops cut from the skirt and the pouch folded through them. I've always considered the folded over belt loop without a skirt a transition holster, but the timeline may be later than for just a transition. This may be over simplified, but it seems to fit, for the most part.

[Cliff Fendley]

I have seen one holster with the folded over flap in a private collection that is guessed to have been made in the 1870's. It was made by Ben Varga (sp) of San Antonio if I remember right and there is also one of his in "Packing Iron" that looks very much like it and appears to possibly have a folded over loop. So I guess by this we can say at least one maker used this style, whether as a transition or just his style I don't know. Either way I see this being used much more in CAS today than it apparently was used in the 19th century.

[Slowhand Bob]

These are really some hard calls and in our search for individuality and a new and different designs over the past hundred plus years has muddied the waters beyond true identification in some instances.  Look at some of the offerings by several popular makers and classify them.  Here is one with a folded over belt loop but no strap circling the holster.  http://www.customgunleather.com/site/Products/HOLSTERS/TWOSONSRIG/tabid/69/Default.aspx  Kirkpatrick even takes the ante a bit higher with this model, a full skirt but still no strap encircling the holster.   http://www.kirkpatrickleather.com/product/h_lhs.htm

In my own mind I have settled on the fold over belt loop as being the loop in Mexican Loop.  I doubt that anyone could definitively find the original first use of the term Mexican Loop, or who coined it, so that allows me the default argument to keep the demarcation clear in my head with the folded belt loop.  Here are a couple that I have made, two of which are definite Slim Jims but the others are, by my definition, variations of the Mexican Loop style.  http://home.comcast.net/~gakracker/site/?/page/MY_PERSONAL_LEATHER_/

Those early Mexican Loops that I do consider to be truly transitional,l in Packing Iron, are the ones which retain the traditional lines at the main seam and mouth while including the new full skirt design.  Tandy came out with some great patterns based on this many years ago and I made one holster from that pattern pack that I still have.

[Cliff Fendley]

Your first one is definitely a Slim Jim. The others are a western style holster deffinately with Mexican loop influence somewhat like you saw in early 20th century when style variations went wild with early B-Western films. The kirkpatric holsters are basically the same.

I guess this may be one persons opinion but without a "LOOP" for the pouch to slide through I would not classify it as a Mexican Loop although with the skirt they have Mexican loop influence in them. I always refer to these variations along with Buscadaro rigs as B-Western designs.

The two sons rig is more in line with the later 1930-1940 border patrol (ie Jordan Holster).

Even though later lawman holsters definitely had western influence transitioning from Mexican loop ( S.D. Myers Texas Jockstraps) styles into Tom Threeperson (which was made by S. D. Myers) and then into the the Bill Jordon Border Patrol holster a person should note that this style was not used prior to the early to mid 20th century when they are putting together a CAS outfit. The Bill Jordan holsters also had a full welt the length of the holster which is where I feel a lot of this comes from on western holsters today. That welt was added to set the grip out away from the persons side. Most 19th century holsters I've been able to study had no welt or just a partial welt at the top.

The main thing I guess with all the variations is what time line you are going for with your outfit. With SASS I see all variations, some of them representing Cowboy dress well into the 20th century. For NCOWS it needs to be a true Mexican Loop holster or California pattern to be 19th century correct. In fact NCOWS rules specifically prohibit Buscadaro rigs. Even many if not most of the Texas Jockstrap styles are pushing into the very early 20th century.