Need info from experts

cowboywc · January 06, 2009, 01:39:07 PM

Howdy Guys
This is probably the wrong place to post this but I need some info from the history experts.
I'll try to make the story short.
My sons friends dad found a dbl barrel T.Barker shotgun in the rafters of a garage he was doing some
electrical work in. He asked the homeowner about it and he said it belonged to his Great Grandfather who
worked for Wells Fargo as a shotgun rider. He didn't want any guns around and gave to the electrician who gave
it to his son for Xmas.
The gun is engraved and stamped W.F.E & Co on both sides of the gun. It also has a worn logo on the stock.
What are the chances that this is an original Wells Fargo Coach Gun? I have pix if anyone wants to see.
WC

JD Alan · January 06, 2009, 05:26:37 PM

I'm no expert, but I'd sure like to see some pix. What a find! JD

Marshal Will Wingam · January 06, 2009, 06:50:46 PM

That sure sounds like it could be an original. You may want to ask the history buffs over in the NCOWS thread. Many of them are very knowledgable. By all means post a picture of it for us if you have one. Make a butt cover for it that looks appropriately old enough, first, though.

Irish Dave · January 06, 2009, 08:37:00 PM

I'd recommend a PM to St. George. (He's NCOWS and a moderator on the BOSS and Hisotrical Society forums.)

One of the most knowledgeable men I know.
There's lots of other folks, too, on the NCOWS boards who could likely add some expertise-- especially with some pix.

cowboywc · January 07, 2009, 03:31:17 AM

Here are a few pix.
WC

JD Alan · January 07, 2009, 09:04:04 AM

Nice looking weapon, and very sharp pictures. Thanks

Marshal Will Wingam · January 07, 2009, 10:28:37 AM

What a fine old piece. To my untrained eye, it looks authentic. It would seem that the left lock was replaced at one time by the way the WF&ECo is stamped to overlap the lock plate but no impression is on it. It'll be interesting to see what the experts have to say. Thanks for the pics.

Buck Stinson · January 07, 2009, 11:10:57 AM

I've owned several nice original Wells Fargo items from the 1860 to 1900 era, but never a firearm. I have a lot of research material that tell about the makes of the shotguns that were purchased. Barker is not on the list. I also found it interesting that this gun was clearly marked W.F.E. & Co. Since Wells Fargo went into business in 1852, the equipment they purchased and used was marked in one of four different ways. This included everything from letterheads and badges to strong boxes and firearms. These markings are as follows.

W.F.&Co.
W.F.&Co. E.
Well, Fargo & Co.
Well, Fargo & Co. Express

The word express was never used within the name but always followed the name. This gun is clearly marked W.F.E.&Co. Check out a good book by James Lynn Bartz called COMPANY PROPERTY. Hope this will help.

Adios,
Buck

Trailrider · January 07, 2009, 11:55:06 AM

Quote from: Buck Stinson on January 07, 2009, 11:10:57 AM
I've owned several nice original Wells Fargo items from the 1860 to 1900 era, but never a firearm. I have a lot of research material that tell about the makes of the shotguns that were purchased. Barker is not on the list. I also found it interesting that this gun was clearly marked W.F.E. & Co. Since Wells Fargo went into business in 1852, the equipment they purchased and used was marked in one of four different ways. This included everything from letterheads and badges to strong boxes and firearms. These markings are as follows.

W.F.&Co.
W.F.&Co. E.
Well, Fargo & Co.
Well, Fargo & Co. Express

The word express was never used within the name but always followed the name. This gun is clearly marked W.F.E.&Co. Check out a good book by James Lynn Bartz called COMPANY PROPERTY. Hope this will help.

Adios,
Buck

Howdy, Pards,
Wells Fargo guns are extremely hard to authenticate. Supposedly, all their records were either destroyed or bought by some individual after American Express bought out the other express outfits. Depends on who you talk to...

As to the way Wells Fargo marked their stuff, I agree that one of the four styles mentioned above were mostly...generally the way Company Property was marked. However...about 35 years ago I acquired a well-worn M1886 barrelled action...no stock, missing internal parts and no magazine. It had a 16-1/2" barrel (cut???), and was chambered in .40-65 WCF. The left diagonal flat of the octagon barrel was engraved (like the letters on the shotgun, pretty narrow letters to be stamped, but I'm no expert on that) "W.F. EXP. Co. XXXX" (the X's denoting a number). A querry to the Wells Fargo Museum in San Francisco resulted in a letter stating they thought the rifle legitimate! They believed that it was a local-purchase item by one of the field offices. In the same envelope, they included a brouchure of the museum. Right on the cover was a M1849 Colt's pocket pistol, with "WELLS FARGO EXP. CO." stamped on the backstrap!

As I paid about $50 for the rifle, and probably put another $100 into "restoring" it to shooting condition, I didn't lose much if the gun wasn't legit. The watchword, "caveat emptor" is the best advice. If you are contemplating buying one, don't pay more than the gun would be worth if it was not marked at all! (Possible exceptions might be those cut-down S&W Schofields that are generally marked W.F. & Co. Exp. XXXX or somesuch on the right side of the barrel near the hinge. Generally, on those, the number is an inventory number and will often match the serial number of the gun.

Hope this helps a bit.

Buck Stinson · January 07, 2009, 01:55:00 PM

Trailrider is correct, except for one thing, we are not talking about the same marking and this is very important. The gun in question is marked W. F. E. & Co. The key here is the "&" after the "E". An E placed before the & Co. makes no sense. It would make far more sense if the "&" had been omitted and only the Co. stamped after the E. Right after I placed my first reply, I called Jim Bartz at his home in Lake Forest, California. He is a world renowned collector and dealer of original Wells Fargo memorabilia. He said of the thousands of items he has owned and in all the research he has done, never has he come across the stamp as illustrated on this shotgun. Check out his web site at www.westboundstage.com

Adios,
Buck

Marshal Will Wingam · January 07, 2009, 06:52:08 PM

I took another look at those photos. It still looks to me that the stamping is "W F & E Co". Not that it would help much, but the ampersand is before the "E", not after it.

ChuckBurrows · January 07, 2009, 07:28:22 PM

Quote from: Marshal Will Wingam on January 07, 2009, 06:52:08 PM
I took another look at those photos. It still looks to me that the stamping is "W F & E Co". Not that it would help much, but the ampersand is before the "E", not after it.

Yep - FWIW - this it the best enhancement I could do with the source material - the ampersand, in a script type face, is definitely between the F and E which are in a serif type face like the W and the Co and it's the same on both sides of the frame..........

cowboywc · January 08, 2009, 12:21:50 AM

Howdy Buck
I misprinted it. If you look at the pix it is W.F. & E. Co.
WC

Buck Stinson · January 08, 2009, 10:18:20 AM

I see what you mean. The last photo does show this marking a little more clearly. However, I don't see that it changes anything. It only adds to the fact that this marking is most likely fake. The word EXPRESS or the letter"E" is always at the end of the company name. Otherwise, it would be like saying Winchester Repeating Arms "and" Gun Co. or American "and" Express Co.

Adios,
Buck

ChuckBurrows · January 08, 2009, 12:23:31 PM

Some history of T Barker shotguns - read the whole thread - basically a Belgium gun built for Crescent Firearms and imported by HD Folsom
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=28485

While this is most likely not a Well Fargo gun it may not be a fake either. In just a quick search I found two references to a WF &E Co - one in a 1921 Gov't Civil Appropriations and the second was for a patent marking "Western Union Morse Code Telegraph Relay. This wooden base is marked Pat'd W.U.T. Co. W.F. & E. Co. 150 Ohms and has a Manhattan Electric Supply Company logo on the wooden base. "

In times past many companies hired payroll and other guards (such as union busters) so this gun may have come from such a source - it may be worth looking into the patent records or with Western Union or perhaps some of the other sources note , if for nothing else to satisy ones curiousity......

In fact I just looked closer at the faded logo - the letter count for the three individual words at the top is right for Western Union Co, but the photo is just not clear info to decipher? Try using side light and looking at it on an angle.....Western Union of course moved lots of cash so most likely would have had guards?

buckeylee · June 24, 2010, 10:52:28 AM

Well, my $0.02 worth. I also have a shotgun ( Remington 1894, made 1902-1904 ) marked W.F. & E. Co. After MUCH digging I found several references to court cases involving W.F. & E. Co.!! Western Fuse & Explosives Company, furthermore they were in business at the time the gun was sold. They manufactured and transported explosives. They were involved in several court cases, one where there were defrauded of payment for their product ( do you really want to rip-off a company that makes explosives? ) and others concerning where they placed their plants and storage facilities. One of which was blown up by a suicidal worker!
I have some images of these references if anyone is interested