single action/lever action combo, remington 1875 at the top

[justin22885]

im looking for a combination single action revolver and lever action.. im not going to be doing any cowbow action shooting, i just really think the idea of having a rifle, and a handgun of the same caliber was a really good idea, and makes a lot of sense...

the revolver will be used for recreation, occasional hunting, and once in a while for carry (ccw).. no, i dont care that its single action, i dont believe i need a 30 round magazine and a 1200rpm rate of fire, if i ever need it for defense itll most likely be against another pitbull, ive already been attacked by three of those. the lever action will be used for frequent target shooting, and frequent hunting...

i was origionally considering a ruger blackhawk and a marlin 1894 both in 41 magnum, as you cant really argue with the amount of punch and accuracy you get from that cartridge... however, thats the only 41 magnum lever action out there, and im not a major fan of the marlins, theyre nice and all, i just like a winchester or a henry more, though i wouldnt doubt a winchester 92 could be converted to 41 magnum, as theyre offered in 44 magnum, but this isnt work i really want to do

so knowing what i get if i went with the marlin/ruger combo, to help with my decision, i need to know what im going to get with a remington/henry or winchester combo?... so i was wondering what the maximum safe load you guys think will be, how strong the design is to give some indication as to how far i can push it, what to look for in case i push it too far (i dont want to destroy anything... yet)... the idea here is the lever action loads are going to be as hot as i can get them, because i know the lever will handle it, and itll be better for hunting, but i dont want it to destroy the revolver either..

and a final question, has anyone actually hunted with 44-40 in a lever action?... whats the range to expect on large game? obviously you cant safely take buffalo with it, but would elk or mule deer be out of the question out to 100-150 yards?

it seems after doing more research, the maximum 45 colt loads that can be fired from a 73 clone is about 500ft/lbs, the maximum loads from a ruger are about 1200ft/lbs, more than double the energy, so much so trimmed 454 casull brass needs to be used.  where does the remington fall into this? its said its stronger, however overall weight tends to be about the same.... whats going to be the more reliable option of the 73 and 75 clones? ive heard the remingtons do come with their share of problems but with someone who knows how to work on them, they have a far better fit and feel, this work im not afraid of. does the remington include a safety notch with the hammer?... im not afraid of using a safety notch for safety, it takes a lot of poor handling of the revolver, or many, many, many repeated uses for the safety notch to fail at which point its probably a good idea to replace the hammer anyway... i have a friend that can make replacement hammers for his colts, so im sure he could do the same for the remington or the colt, whichever i get.

i apologize for the lengthy post, but ive spent about 3 hours on this website searching elsewhere for the answers and am unable to find it, and i cant really find an appropriate forum for these questions, ive turned the remington forum as right now the remington and henry/winchester are in the lead for my decision, pending the .44-40 cartridge can be loaded hot enough to take down large game at 150 yards max without destroying the revolver...

[justin22885]

aah.. reading some guidelines on big game hunting and pistol cartridges.. it seems the 750ft/lb 44-40 load is good for taking elk at 100 yards, and this load is most likely fired from a revolver, so out of a lever action it should meet my requirements, if this same load is safe to use in a remington 1875

[Pettifogger]

I don't know where you are getting your data but a standard .44-40 load is a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps out of a 24" rifle barrel.  You are not going to get a safe 750 ft/lb load out of a revolver.  No current factory .44-40 load or any load in any modern reloading manual will approach that power out of a rifle let alone a revolver.  Back in the old days the factories loaded a hotter version of the .44-40 but those were discontinued in the 1960's because a lot of guns chambered in .4-40 simply could not handle the pressure.  The .44-40 is a short range deer cartridge.  You can kill an elk with a .22 if you hit it in the right place, but in general the .44-40 is not a 150 yard elk cartridge.  If you want magnum performance make sure you buy guns that can handle what you are trying to do.  A Henry or any toggle action Winchester (Henry, 66, 73) is not something you want to be hot rodding.  The only Remington style handguns that were strong enough for hot loads were the Hartford Armories and they only made a few and are out of business.  The current Uberti guns are safe with any SAAMI spec .44-40.  If you want magnum performance get a Rossi 92 in .454 Casull and a .454 Casull revolver.

You hardly ever SEE a Hartford let alone see one for sale.  Here's one that just came up.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=172147364

[justin22885]

but if a captain obvious here i guess... many factorys wont even sell full powered 7.92x58mm ammunition because of one thing major ammunition manufacturers fear... LIABILITY, of course an old one cant handle such loads, so they dont make them because they dont want to be liable for someone firing it out of an older firearm, itll ruin it, and probably injure the guy, thats common sense

[justin22885]

i would rather get a 73 or a henry in .44-40 if i decide to go that route... also, has anyone actually tried to see what a reproduction can do? i hear a lot of "this guy told me that this guy said" stuff, but has anyone tried to push any of these reproductions to their limits to see just which ones will hold up the best?... ill admit, the 150 yards thing was an exaggeration, i was really tired when i wrote that, 75-100 yards top, and an occasional elk

[Pettifogger]

You push a Henry to the limits and report back.

[justin22885]

eventually i will push them to their limits, but for now im looking for the maximum loads that can be handled in a newly made 1873 or 1875 single action so i know what to expect when using this same load in a lever action... i wont be using the maximum load the lever actions can handle, ill be using the maximum load the handguns can handle so that i can specifically reload and carry one type, one configuration, once ive settled on a specific load i will adjust the sights on both to fit that load, 20-25 yards for the handgun, probably 75-100 for the lever

all of that in mind im going to use a bullet that will fit both purposes as well, may not be the absolute best in either use, but will still be quite good for both, something like a flat tipped jacketed soft points of the same weight in both firearms

my options here are for a more modern handgun,

a ruger redhawk 44 with 5 1/2 inch barrel and a winchester 92 clone
a ruger blackhawk 41 magnum with marlin 1894
a remington 1875 in .44-40 with 5 1/2 inch barrel with henry, 1873, or 1892 clone
a colt single action 4.75 or 5.5 inch in .45lc MAYBE .357 magnum with henry, 73, or 92 clone

with the 357, i know i could use probably every 357 load out there.. the smaller diameter in the full size cylinders means theres a lot of cylinder wall there to contain pressures

heres what raised questions... people have tested more powerful 45 colt loads to be unsafe in reproduction revolvers... the remington is rumored to be a stronger design, not sure if this is true or not, but i havent seen anyone actually tests the limits of the 44-40, or the remington model, thats why i was wondering where its strength lies, as to my knowledge no one has yet tested...

someday when i have more disposable income i plan to buy an 1875 clone in .44-40 and step the load up every 100 rounds untill i see signs of stress, or catastrophic failure, this of course will be done with a motor operating the trigger behind a thick plexiglass shield.. you get the idea, but thats a ways off

i was wondering if anyone has done anything like this yet to really test what a new one, with new steel, in a slightly smaller diameter cartridge can actually do... i guess thats still an unknown so people stick with the general rule for 45 colt clones for safety

the reason im going through all of this is for safety, believe it or not.. its easy to buy a 92 clone, and low it rather hot... then by mistake load one of these by accident into a revolver, and cause major injury which is what im trying to avoid.. however, if you go too light of a load, you risk losing a humane kill, and the last thing i want to do to an animal is torture it, so i only shoot when i have a sure shot, and i use all parts of the animal i can

also, with the cost of ammunition i definitely see economical sense in persuing a combo in the same caliber that can do all i want, but 357 magnum, 41 magnum, 44 magnum, 44-40, 45 colt... it all comes out to about the same in reloading costs, and all can be reloaded with the lee classic loader.. my personal preference for reloading as i can fit the entire system in my pocket and reload at a range for testing new loads

[justin22885]

i talked to a friend of mine whos a major reloader.. anyway, we were discussing loads and basically anything with safe pressures firing from a single action clone (73 or 75), will produce around 1200ft/lbs of energy out of an 18-20 inch lever.. so really, 44-40 in a 75, 357 or 45 colt in a 73... either one is going to do well for deer out to 100 from a lever, so im not too worried about not getting a clean kill with that... however, it didnt rule anything out yet.. all options are still quite valid making my decision harder... th 357 idea is gaining ground though as its the only cartridge of all mentioned i could readily find at a gun shop if i had to

[Forty Rod]

Sounds like you already have your mind made up and putting your trust in a "major reloader" who may not know squat about these old designs.

Let us know how it turns out. (If you're able).

Good luck.

[justin22885]

he was able to tell me the performance of 357 magnum and 45 colt loads out of a lever action, what energies they had, and what pressure they were making... all loads producing enough to easily take down deer inside 100 yards was still inside the SAAMI standard pressure range... so would be safe in the clones... i just didnt know these standard pressure loads were THAT much more powerful out of a lever action

[justin22885]

at this point, since its come to my attention standard pressure loads are plenty for hunting out of a lever action, im going to rule out the 41 magnum blackhawk, and the 44 magnum redhawk, and just keep this between an SAA clone (probably the stampede for its transfer bar safety), in 357 magnum, the uberti in 45lc (more historically accurate SAA setup) and then the 1875 in 44-40... all cartridges will do well for what i need, at this point its going to come down to overall quality

ive heard a list of problems with the 1875 clones fit and finish... easily broken hand springs, firing pin often slamming the recoil plate which is as bad as dry firing, and a couple other things around here... are these 1875 problems common? and whether or not theyre common, are they overly expensive or difficult to fix?.... and what is the quality of the end result of the 1875 that you guys experience?

[Stillwater]

Cimarron/Uberti has announced an 1873 clone in 44 Magnum...

Bill

[justin22885]

uberti had a 44 magnum SAA clone like 30 years ago, its not an exact clone obviously.. looked more like a super blackhawk with fixed sights if youve ever seen that massive size top strap on those requiring about a mile tall front sight to match the rear

[Bow View Haymaker]

If your going to be hunting with this rifle.  
Check you states game laws.  here in Nebraska .357 and .45 are legal for deer usinmg a handgun but not a rifle.For handgus they measure the energy at50yrds and for rifles they measure at 100 yrds.  Hes the handgun calibers can get the job done at close range but the state doesn' take that into consideration.  The minimum rfle calibers may be more powerful than what you want to use.