45LC or 44 Colt?

[RemingtonEric]

So whats the big difference? Pluses? Minuses? Is the 44 colt cartridge what most of remington's got converted to or either cartridge was viable?

[Forty Rod]

Everything for the .45 is readily available.  Might not be for the .44, especially brass.

[RemingtonEric]

Yeah I figured as much for brass but I can just buy the ammo looks available most places.

[Shotgun Franklin]

The .44 Colt was the first US Gov't Pistol Cartridge. It used an outside lubed bullet. It was a similar to the .44 Russian in power. If I recall correctly brass is available from Star Line. It's no where near the .45 Colt in power or accuracy but it was a wonder when it came out. And no, you don't wanna get shot with one. The original bullet diameter was .443, weighing about 215 grs. The clones I've handled were .429 or there about.

[RemingtonEric]

So would it have been one of the cartridges used when they converted from C&B? Or would it have been 45LC?

[Hoof Hearted]

Eric

In order to shoot 44 Colt from any Army revolver you need either Heel Base or Hollow Base bullets (if ya wanna hit anything) as the bore is .451+ and 44 inside lubed ammo is going to sport a (roughly) .429 bullet.

Both R&D and Kirst have made 44 Colt chambered conversions.

Remingtons were converted (mostly) in 46 rimfire and 44 Remington, I own an Armoury conversion in 44 that accepts 44 Colt.
Shotgun Franklin is correct in his post regarding original Remington 44 specs.

Do a search here on the forum for my article on loading Heel Base ammo, it will give you the info to make a decision on what you would like to persue along with where to get the necessary mould, dies, etceteras.

Regards
HH

[RemingtonEric]

I am assuming later that they offered 45LC when it was available correct?

[Shotgun Franklin]

The .45 Colt was the first US Gov't Pistol Cartridge that was designed as a center fire round for a centerfire revolver. The .44 Colt's were made to fill the gap until the .45 Colt was ready. The SAA and .45 Colt were a package deal. The cartridge for that gun and that gun for that cartridge. The .45 Colt was much more powerful than the .44 Colt and was a lot more accurate. The .44 used an outside lubed bullet that was a real problem to keep clean. The original .45 Colt loading was the most powerful revolver round in the world until the .357 Mag came out. It is still a substantial round. And yep, I'm repeating myself but typing while eating, sorry.

[Hoof Hearted]

I am assuming later that they offered 45LC when it was available correct?

Eric

There are some reports of 45 Colt revolving carbines (obviously made in the 1870's) but Remington had moved on to the 1875 model by then. My feeling is that 45 Colt is not historically correct........I'm sure somebody will chime in here and disagree.

I get the feeling you are interested in "correctness" but the 45 Colt cylinders will give you the "ease" of a contemporary cartridge that shoots well (in fact evey Pietta I have ever shot with a 45 Colt conversion cylinder in it shot very well, top point of aim and nice grouping.


Regards
HH

[RemingtonEric]

Correct I am looking for the correct caliber used so basically now a days 45LC is the best to use as it fills the gap, but would you say 44 colt would of been more correct to shoot now a days to keep with historical accurate?

[Hoof Hearted]

Correct I am looking for the correct caliber used so basically now a days 45LC is the best to use as it fills the gap, but would you say 44 colt would of been more correct to shoot now a days to keep with historical accurate?

Yes!

I would say that and I do shoot, collect and build 44 (heelbase) conversions using Colt cases.

[RemingtonEric]

and I take it when I go and buy 44 colt ammo as long as it says black powder cowboy load then I am fine correct?

[Shotgun Franklin]

For a revolver the .45 Colt is as correct as you can get. For a rifle nope. The .45 Colt was nearly rimless and just didn't work in a lever action repeater. The lever action was the repeating rifle of the second half of the 1800s. If you ever get a chance compare a vintage .45 Colt case to a modern one and you can see the difference. Of course you can always shorten the .45 Colt and duplicate the .45 Gov't, a cross between the .45 Colt and the .45 S&W, but I've never seen or heard of a repeating rifle in the .45 Gov't either.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Eric;  I think it depends on how far you want to go.

It has been mentioned above but there are two versions of .44 Colt.  So now you have THREE choices;

1.  The original .44 Colt as developed by the military used a heeled bullet in order to alter existing 1860 armies and Remington new Armies without re-barreling, and to keep the cylinders within reasonable dimensions when chambered for 6 rounds.  As mentioned the HEELED bullet seemed to be smaller than the .450 - .451 groove dimensions, but did work well.  The basic case was quite similar to the .44 Russian/Special, but between them in length, and cases can be made from them by narrowing the rims.  This was the only round made for the Colt Richards conversion adopted by the Army. This round evolved into both .44 Colt and .44 Remington, with ammo sold up to WWII.

2.  The MODERN .44 Colt uses the same case but with the inside lubed bullet of the .44s at .429.  The barrel must be re-lined to .429, but allows easy reloading with commonly available components.  Convenience aside, this one has no historical basis. Factory revolvers are available, I think?

3.  .45 Colt.  Conversion cylinders are widely available.  There is some historical validity, as at least one Remington conversion is known with a six-shot .45 Colt conversion cylinder.  The first Remington conversions were in .46 rimfire, but with new 5-shot cylinders as six rims would not fit factory cylinder dimensions.  R&D cylinders get 6 .45 Colts in the cylinder by angling the chambers slightly.

My conclusion?  .45 Colt with R&D or Kirst conversion cylinders if convenience is weighed in the balance with some historical precedence.  Original .44 Colt if absolute historical accuracy outweighs the additional effort in assembling components for heeled bullet ammunition.  .44 Modern is a compromise that some have chosen, so don't rule it out completely.

[RemingtonEric]

quite a lot to think about eh well I thought the 44 colt cowboy loads they make now a days was the 1st option you were talking about but I guess I was wrong in my thinking.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Well, I've never seen or heard of a .44 Colt rifle either so I'd guess it's just up to what you wanna use.

[Hoof Hearted]

Well, I've never seen or heard of a .44 Colt rifle either so I'd guess it's just up to what you wanna use.

Since we are talking modern interpretations of original calibres.......

A 44 Colt rifle would be the certerfire 44 Henry (but slightly longer). 44 Russian can be used also, and duplicates the Henry round better for length, but is "short" for the modern carriers (which are longer for the 44 WCF that the Italian guns were originally redesigned for).

If a guy could find an "early" Uberti 66 that was rimfire and convert the bolt to centerfire you might be getting close to a real "Italian" 44 Central fire rifle....................

[Long Johns Wolf]

As Hoof Hearted says +: if you can find an Uberti Henry in .44 Special you can load 15 rounds of .44 Colt (modern: .429 dia inside lubed bullet) in the tube. Unmodified this .44 Special variant will cycle, feed, fire and eject this .44 Colt (modern) if only 14 rounds are loaded in the tube. With a little filing of the carrier/modification of the ramps' angle it can be modified to fire all 15.
Long Johns Wolf