Cimarron 1876 Centennial .45-60wcf reloading questions

[Old Badger]

 Howdy:
I have been trying to reload .45-60wcf cartridges for my new 1876 Uberti and have run into some problems.
First I cut down .45-70govt. cases to 1.890 length and tried one in the chamber to check rim thickness etc. and it worked fine.
I ordered a RCBS 45-325FN-U bullet mould so I wouldn't have to use gas checks like I would have to with a RCBS 45-300FN.
Got the bullet mould and began learning to cast my own. After a couple of learning sessions finally started getting good bullets. Loaded up 10 cartridges using W.W. brass, Win. large rifle magnum primers, 60 grains, weighed, of Goex black powder, a .030 Walters wad and the RCBS 45-325FN-U bullet, pan lubed, and seated to a O.A.L. of 2.150 as stated in Cartridges of the World.
Tried a cartridge in my 1876 Uberti and everything worked except the bullet wouldn't slide into the barrel but hit the bottom of the barrel with it's flat nose. Finally after shaking around and tilting got the round into the chamber and cycled it back out without any problem.
Has anyone tried this bullet and had this problem or is there something wrong with my rifle?
I had ordered some RCBS 45-300FN gas check bullets online and when they arrived I seated one in a empty unprimed case and tried it. Everything worked correctly, no feed problem. The RCBS 45-325FN-U has a larger flat nose than the RCBS 45-300FN but didn't figure this would be a problem in a lever gun as can sometimes be encountered in semi-auto pistols using say Gold Dot hollow point or other bullets with a large cavity hollow point.
Also, neither bullet will seat to correct length so as to be crimped in the crimp groove but has to be seated past the crimp groove and crimped on the bullet's melplat, which works fine.
Mike Venturino said the RCBS 45-300FN would work and he was correct. I just didn't want to buy and install gas checks since I don't have a lube machine and not sure how one would seat a gas check on the bullet without something like that.
I have been reloading for years but casting my own bullets is something new to me.
Any advice on reloading the .45-60wcf for the 1876 Uberti rifle would be helpful.
Keep your powder dry.
Old Badger

[w44wcf]

Old Badger,
Welcone to the world of bullet casting   The correct OAL for the .45-60 is  2.25". That probably won't help the feeding into the chamber issue but I should help with crimping the bullet in the correct location.  There can be differences in the carrier height when at the top of the travel.  If it stops much below level with the chamber, feeding cartridges into the chamber with bulets that have a larger meplat (nose diameter) can be an issue. 

Original .45-60 cartridges had bullets with a meplat of around .25-.27".  Lyman's 457191 is a replication of the original bullet.

Good luck,
w44wcf

[Grizzly Adams]

Old Badger,
Welcone to the world of bullet casting   The correct OAL for the .45-60 is  2.25". That probably won't help the feeding into the chamber issue but I should help with crimping the bullet in the correct location.  There can be differences in the carrier height when at the top of the travel.  If it stops much below level with the chamber, feeding cartridges into the chamber with bulets that have a larger meplat (nose diameter) can be an issue. 

Original .45-60 cartridges had bullets with a meplat of around .25-.27".  Lyman's 457191 is a replication of the original bullet.

Good luck,
w44wcf

I think the larger meplat is most of your problem.  That and the OAL, which as 44wcf has said is 2.25.  Buffalo Arms sells the 457191 bullet, and it works very well in my Cimmie 1876. 

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm?viewfrom=13&catid=84&step=2Here is the link:

I use this bullet and I crimp over the crimp grove to get the correct OAL.  Winchester factory loads were also crimped over the crimp grove, FWIW. 

You may find you can go a little longer and still function through the action.  Load up at least two or three rounds to check function though the magazine.

And welcome to the forum!

[Old Badger]

Howdy Again:
Thanks for the info.
I already have the Lyman mould you mentioned. I was going by Cartridges of the Worlds for over all cartridge length since no one gave me anything different until your replies. Just didn't want to get to long to feed because heard it is a nightmare to get the round back out is it doesn't clear the tube magazine enough to cycle up to the barrel.
I cast some Lyman bullets with the above mentioned mould and loaded some rounds with them but at the 2.150 length they didn't come near the crimp groove but a lot deeper. I roll crimped them a lot to move the case mouth in closer to the bullet ogive and pushed the bullet nose against the bench and the bullet didn't move in any deeper into the case. This over crimping would certainly overwork the case and cut down on reloadings before case failed. I guess they will still be ok to use or should I pull the bullets?
Guess I'll have to scrape the use of the RCBS 45-325 FN-U bullet for use in the 1876 and use them for my 45-70 Sharps or Trapdoor. That's a shame cause they look like good bullets for hunting with the wide nose and they're easy to cast.
I have found that the Lyman single cavity mould is harder to cast good bullet for some reason. I'll have to keep trying and learning I guess.
Is the casing length of 1.890 correct? I am again going by Cartridges of the World for case length.
Are there any other bullets that will work correctly with the 45-60 cartridge and stay at or near the 300 grain weight?
I contacted Lyman and they are coming out with a new loading manual this next summer. They said there would probably be data for the .45-60wcf in it.
Well, have to go.
Thanks for the replies and any other advice on this will be helpfull.
Keep your powder dry and shoot straight.
Old Badger

[w44wcf]

Old Badger,

Yes, 1.88" - 1.89" is the correct length for the .45-60 case.

Regarding the ctg's. loaded at the 2.15" length, personally,
I would shoot them and when you reload,  use the 2.25" length.

The 325 gr. RCBS bullet should work just fine in the '76. WHen crimped
in the crimp groove the cartridge  o.a.l. shoud be very close to the correct 2.25".
Perhaps they might feed ok at the 2.25" length. 

With the 457191 seated to 2.25" o.a.l., the crimp will be just over the front
driving band. Your mold should make good bullets. As you  said, "just have to
keep learning".

Good luck,
w30wcf

[bikini19]

I am experiencing similar porblems with my recently purchased Cimarron 1876, by Uberti, serial #00XXX. It sounds like I need to try different bullets.

I do have a question: Do the brass carrier on your guns, have the caliber engraved on the bottom?  I have talked to Cimarron, VTI, and Uberti; they say all the carrier blocks are the same. No one could answer why mine is engraved "45-60"

[rustyrelx]

I think theres several things going on with your 45. Your using smokless tequnique on black powder. Won't work!
1. these older cartridges were loaded by volumn not weight. so 60 grains weight is not 60 grains volumn
2. You can of course shoot you barefooted gas check bullet. I'd try before I gave up on this
3. Your compressing the powder too much
4. magnum primer isn't necessary, large pistol works just fine
5. its possible that your overall length is too short, use the 2.25 overall length
Try there ideas and see if you gain anything.
   Don

[Cimarron]

I am experiencing similar porblems with my recently purchased Cimarron 1876, by Uberti, serial #00XXX. It sounds like I need to try different bullets.

I do have a question: Do the brass carrier on your guns, have the caliber engraved on the bottom?  I have talked to Cimarron, VTI, and Uberti; they say all the carrier blocks are the same. No one could answer why mine is engraved "45-60"

They are engraved with the cartridge the rifle is chambered for as per the originals.  Mine is marked .45-75.

[Grapeshot]

I think theres several things going on with your 45. Your using smokless tequnique on black powder. Won't work!
1. these older cartridges were loaded by volumn not weight. so 60 grains weight is not 60 grains volumn
  Don

I'll try not to step to hard on your toes, Rustyrelx.  60 grains weighed, of Goex BLACK POWDER is gioing to fill a container/dipper with a 60 grains by volumn because it is BLACK POWDER.  Any other substitute, be it Pyrodex, AAP, 777 or Pinacle that is put into that measuring dipper/scoop that's marked for 60 grains of BLACK POWDER is going to give the equilavent power, +/-, of the weighed charge of 60 Grains of BLACK POWDER.

You won't get 60 grains of weight of any of the above mentioned substiutes, but you will be within a grain or two of that 60 grain weight if you use BLACK POWDER in that scoop / dipper.

I can use the Lee Dipper for 4.0 cc's for reloading my shotgun hulls with BLACK POWDER and get the same results, all else being equal, by using that same dipper for any of the Subs in those same hulls.  Works the same in pistol or rifle rounds as well.

I know that out of my Lee 2.5 cc dipper, Goex FFg BLACK POWDER will drop a weight of 42 grains.  What it throws with the subs is immaterial weight wise.  I have the volumnetric measure that will allow me to load equilavent loads using that dipper and any of the subs.

I hope I've cleared this matter for all involved.