56-50 Accuracy

[Patrick Henry Brown]

I'm currently using a Lyman 515139 bullet in my 56-50 Spencer sized to .513. I'm interested in what kind of accuracy you 56-50 shooters are getting with this and other 350 gr. bullets. I've read a lot about the twist rate in our Carbines being non-conducive to accuracy beyond 50 yds or so. I would appreciate any feedback, loads, other bullet recommendations etc. I do have the Lyman 515141 mold, but am still uncomfortable with the meplat and primers. 

[Two Flints]

Preacher,

Have you checked the SSS SORI Thread - Spencer Often Requestion Information - at this link:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,14075.msg178539.html#msg178539 -- lots of loading information

Two Flints

[Herbert]

wen loading the 515141 bullet to work trough the magizine i put 30 gr ff in case then seat bullet to 1.60oal  inch this compresses the nose of bullet out to 0.26 inches and makes it as safe as any spencer bullet ,i do this because i was lick you and felt a little unsafe using unchanged bullet through magizine,i genraly use this bullet seated out to 1.865 oal with 38 gr swiss singily loaded to shoot a military BP compertision wer we shoot 10 shots 200meters 5 mimits 10 shots 100 meters 2.5 minits 10 shots 50 meters 1 minit through magizine this is wear i youse the shorte load and a blaksee loader you realy have to rember your sight setings, i have tried the 350 T bullet at 50 meters and it works allright but i get a slitly beter score with the515141 conprssed bullet,and at 100-200 meters it is the only way to stay competive with ami sports spencer i shoot against a shooter that has a original spencer 56-50 he youses 350T bullets and gets slitly beter acuracy than i do at 200 meterswith this short bullet fed through the magizine proving that the twist rate is crusal for acuracy wen you are yousing shot bullets

[Arizona Trooper]

Be careful of using a sample of 1 for your ammunition model. Bullet sizes varied all over the place in the early cartridge era.

Your oversize bullet groups aren't that bad for a gun just put back into service. Antiques generally require "shooting in". Accuracy at first can range from disappointing to down right dismal. Keep shooting and cleaning. After several trips to the range, and a couple hundred rounds, your carbine ought to settle down and start hitting well, even with some pitting in the bore.

If the muzzle is bad, pitted or has lots of cleaning rod wear, try very light loads, like 15-20gr. of FF with some cornmeal filler to get good powder compression. Put a card wad between the bullet and filler. It will probably shoot low at 100 yards, but may group better. DO NOT use the smokeless powder method of a cotton fluff filler between the bullet and powder with black powder. You run a very high risk of ringing your chamber.

My experience is that the cutoff 515141 will work very well when it's sized a couple thousandths over groove diameter. My New Model carbine is 0.518" groove diameter and I size to 0.520" (both rings). If you swage it way down in sizing, the base can become dished, which will hurt accuracy. Carefully file the bases flat before loading.

Have patience grasshopper.

On your serial number question, when M-1865s came out, they restarted the serial numbers at 1. To add complication, Burnside contract Spencer M-1865 carbines also start with 1. Carbines with numbers between 1 and about 11,000 can be either Spencer or Burnside M-1865s. (M-1860s were rifles in that serial range, but no carbines.) Between sn ~11,000 to ~24,000, you can have a Model 1860 carbine, a Spencer made M-1865 carbine or a Burnside made M-1865 carbine. Between numbers 24K to 34.5K, you could have a Spencer M-1860 or Burnside M-1865, but no Spencer M-1865s. Past 35K to about 65K there are only M-1860s. If the date on the Springfield Research Service hit is before mid 1865, it's for sure an M-1860 in 56-56.

If it's after May of '65, it's anybody's guess which gun is the one recorded.   One scant clue is if it's in a regular Army unit, it would have been an M-1865 of either manufacturer in 56-50 as the earlier models (even the sleeved 56-50 M-1860s) were considered second class and issued only to militia, teamsters, scouts and so on. Unfortunately, the worst records are from the regular Army, so most hits come from militia units which could have still had M-1860s.

Here's a summary:
M-1860 carbine serial numbers – ~11,000 through ~62,000, with sn 22,000 to 24,000 being State of Mass. Rifles. There are also a few rifles in the 18,000 and 28,000 range, which are probably US Army contract replacements.

M-1865 Spencer Mfg. Carbine serial numbers – 1 through ~24,000

M-1865 Burnside Mfg. Carbine serial numbers – 1 through ~34,500

[El Tigre]

I'm currently using a Lyman 515139 bullet in my 56-50 Spencer sized to .513. I'm interested in what kind of accuracy you 56-50 shooters are getting with this and other 350 gr. bullets. I've read a lot about the twist rate in our Carbines being non-conducive to accuracy beyond 50 yds or so. I would appreciate any feedback, loads, other bullet recommendations etc. I do have the Lyman 515141 mold, but am still uncomfortable with the meplat and primers. 

Please look to http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,28223.0.html

[Patrick Henry Brown]

Well, I will say that my accuracy is great with the 515139 at 25 yds. Goiing to 75 yds, it is horrible. Got to try the 515141 or rebarrel, or sell. I expect a rifle that costs this much to hold a decent group at 75 yds, and 100 yds. 

[Herbert]

i agree with you(a rifle that costs this much should be able to group at 100 yds with the bullet it was desined for eg 320 to 359 gr)i have tryed to tell them obout the problem but get no replys,it is a combination of too fast a twist and too much freebore,by ignoring this problem they are giving there products a bad name it is easily fixed,the spencer rifle is capeble of very good acuracy,there 44-40 spencer shoot very well,it has a 1-36 twist rate wich is about perfect for a short suby bullet,on the up side acuracy inproves out of sight with the 515141 bullet ,but you can only get 30gr of BP in case if you want it too feed trough the magizine,and it limits the distance you can shoot,and it still dosent adress the freebore problem which is a major cause of pore acuracy in BP rifles

[French Jack]

Yes, and the alternatives are to have the barrel relined by Bob Hoyt, or rebarreled with a slower twist. Relining is probably the least expensive.

[Patrick Henry Brown]

I could buy a relined barrel from a member here on SSS. My question about that is can I simply unscrew one barrel and replace it with the relined barrel? Headspace? Where do I find a go or no-go gauge? Cost to get Bob Hoyt to reline the barrel and contact info for him? 

BTW - you are right. I have a 44-40 Spencer from Taylor's and it shoots like a champ right out of the box. 

[Herbert]

you can check headspace on a spencer with feeler gauges i dout you will have any trouble as headspace should be set on old barell,and anyone that can reline a barell shorly would get the chambering right,i would get one but geting it to australia seems to be a lot of trouble,have to wait for armi sports to get there act togrther and make a proper replacment barell

[French Jack]

The last quote I had from Bob Hoyt was $100 and you send him your barrel.  He relines it and chambers it, and sets the headspace identical to the original barrel.  His address:  Bob Hoyt, 700 Fairfield Station Rd. Fairfield, PA 17320.  His phone is 717-642-6696 shop, and 717-642-8527 home.

It is not difficult to remove the barrel and it certainly is less expensive than sending the complete rifle, as many times, UPS breaks the stock.  I think they have a Samsonite Gorilla wrecking for them.

[Patrick Henry Brown]

wen loading the 515141 bullet to work trough the magizine i put 30 gr ff in case then seat bullet to 1.60oal  inch this compresses the nose of bullet out to 0.26 inches and makes it as safe as any spencer bullet ,i do this because i was lick you and felt a little unsafe using unchanged bullet through magizine,i genraly use this bullet seated out to 1.865 oal with 38 gr swiss singily loaded to shoot a military BP compertision wer we shoot 10 shots 200meters 5 mimits 10 shots 100 meters 2.5 minits 10 shots 50 meters 1 minit through magizine this is wear i youse the shorte load and a blaksee loader you realy have to rember your sight setings, i have tried the 350 T bullet at 50 meters and it works allright but i get a slitly beter score with the515141 conprssed bullet,and at 100-200 meters it is the only way to stay competive with ami sports spencer i shoot against a shooter that has a original spencer 56-50 he youses 350T bullets and gets slitly beter acuracy than i do at 200 meterswith this short bullet fed through the magizine proving that the twist rate is crusal for acuracy wen you are yousing shot bullets

Have you chronographed this load -- 30 grs. with the 515141 Lyman bullet?

[Herbert]

no but it takes a bit to get to the 200 meter mark,a lot slower than i would lick

[Grouchy Spike]

The last quote I had from Bob Hoyt was $100 and you send him your barrel.  He relines it and chambers it, and sets the headspace identical to the original barrel.  His address:  Bob Hoyt, 700 Fairfield Station Rd. Fairfield, PA 17320.  His phone is 717-642-6696 shop, and 717-642-8527 home.

It is not difficult to remove the barrel and it certainly is less expensive than sending the complete rifle, as many times, UPS breaks the stock.  I think they have a Samsonite Gorilla wrecking for them.

French Jack, what's the twist rate of Bob Hoyt's liner?

[French Jack]

Bob Hoyt will make whatever twist rate you want, as he makes his own liners.

[.56/50 Iron]

I just received an Armi-Sport spencer Carbine in .56/50  about three week ago. I have completed my initial work with it and use the following load:

Lyman 518145, 350 grains using soft lead
Sized to .512 which is groove diameter.
42 grains of Swiss FFg black owder.
Starline cases.
Overall length of cartridge with this bullet is 1.580"
I am loading with .50/70 dies thus no criimp. I seal with Super Glue on case mouth
SPG lube
Remington 9 1/2 large rifle primer

Fired this group Saturday at 75 yards from the bench. 3 shots just a tiny amount under one inch. There is nothing wrong with the accuracy of thes carbines,


                                  (Photo posted by Two Flints)

This is my first post to the group. Still don't know how to start a topic. Could use some help!
GregT

[Patrick Henry Brown]

I'm glad for you 56-50, and I hope your carbine continues to shoot so well, but please don't make such a quick generalization that reads so consecending. Hoot has worked tirelessly, as has Herbert, and the twist rate in these carbines, and the variances in the chambers is such that a lot of them struggle to produce any acceptable accuracy past 50 yds with shorter bullets in the 350 gr. size. I would also base my accuracy reports on more than one target and a group larger than three rounds.

I'm sure you did not mean to sound lofty, but sorry, pard, that's how it reads to this ol' preacher, anyhow.

[.56/50 Iron]

Good Sunday Morning!
       Please don't take my excitement for being condesending! With all the learning we are doing around here, that is about the last thing I would want to do!!    Luck plays a big part in some of this and I guess that every rifle off the assembly line can  shoot differantly than the one before it. Have gone through about a pound of Swiss FFg so far and that is sure nice powder. Accuracy is a lot limited by the barrel (original) sight and a person's eyesight.
.56/50

[.56/50 Iron]

Good Sunday Evening,
   I spent the last two afternoons with my Spencer Carbine. The goal for the shooting time on Saturday was to try out a couple of loads using linotype bullets. While linotype makes some beautiful slugs, they don't shoot for crap in my Spencer. Accuracy was OK at 75 yards to knock over a White Tail deer, but certainly  does not begin to reflect the accuracy that can be gotten out of the carbine. In other words, don't waste your time with linotype bullets! They do feed well through the magazine and action, but so don't wheel weight slugs. I did have a good time shooting. The vernier tang sight worked well and the bullets were responsive to sight changes, if you would be interested in shifting point of impact of "patterns".
   Sunday was a whole different experience. I used two different brands of black powder: Goex (2005 shipment) and Swiss, both FFg granulation. I used Remington 9 ½ large rifle primers and also Remington 2 ½ large pistol primers. I used wheel weight bullets weighing 347 grains, sized to .512" (Lyman #518145) and lubed with SPG lube. Measuring tube for the Belding and Mull Visible Powder measure was set so that it would drop a charge of Goex  FFg  that would enable the bullet to be seated with only a touch of powder compression. This powder charge turned out to weigh 38 grains. I used the same measuring tube setting to drop a charge of Swiss FFg and that charge weighs 43 grains. Half of the Goex charged cases were primed with Remington 9 ½ large rifle primers and the other half of the Goex charged cases were primed with Remington 2 ½ large pistol primers. Did the same with the Swiss FFg charged cases. I have enlarged the primer pockets of all my cases using a .081" drill bit. Also used a Lyman primer Pocket Uniformer tool. I wanted to see what the difference in group sizes would be based on the primer used. Interesting results. While this was a very limited test, it was not hard to see that the large pistol primers provided me with the tighter groups. Four shot groups under 1.75" at 75 yards was easily accomplished with the Swiss FFg loading. This was not the case with Goex loads. While the large pistol primers gave me smaller group sizes using Goex black powder, the groups of 4 shots were usually at least 4" center to center  and this group size is not something I will even begin to call good.
   This primer test has caused me to re-think the use of large pistol primers in the stubby .56/50 casing.
   These tests have been fun so far. I have learned that if I want to shoot nice small groups in this carbine I will use soft lead or wheel weight bullets, Swiss 2Fg powder and large pistol primers. That Swiss load really snaps in this cartridge! Have not checked the bullet speed yet. Next weekend if the weather permits, I will run a test using both soft lead and wheel weight slugs, 43 grains of Swiss 2Fg powder, primed with Remington 2 ½ large pistol primers. Wonder which bullet metal will group the best? I'm betting soft lead will.
   Another bit of good news is that the barrel on the Spencer is still nice and tight. I'm still using the front sight that came with the carbine. Only alteration has been the installation of the Pedersoli vernier tang sight.
.56/50 Iron