Info on Original Sharps I Just Acquired

[Trailrider]

Trailrider,

Thanks - you pards have given me a wealth of information on this fascinating old rifle.  This carbine is exactly as you describe the conversions, complete to the remainder of the pellet priming system.

FYI, you can purchase a custom 0.515 sizing die to fit the Lyman and RCBS lube/sizers from Buffalo Arms.  That is one of my next steps along with a mold purchase assuming my initial work with precast bullets of that size from Buffalo Arms is reasonably successful.

And yes, I have no intentions of using anything but black powder in this rifle.  That's the only thing I shoot in all my guns, anyway.

Por nada, Pard! BTW could you use a repro cavalry sling and snap-ring for your carbine?  I've got three left that I am closing out.  These are the 2-1/2" wide slings, which were used by the Cavalry until the narrower ones came into use in the 1880's.

[Tascosa Joe]

Por nada, Pard! BTW could you use a repro cavalry sling and snap-ring for your carbine?  I've got three left that I am closing out.  These are the 2-1/2" wide slings, which were used by the Cavalry until the narrower ones came into use in the 1880's.

Trail Rider, send me a PM or something.  I am interested in one of the slings.

Tascosa Joe

[James Hunt]

Regarding sizing die - I have the standard die set and find I can use .515 in it just fine. Try it before you buy any custom die as you may not need it.

Interestingly I have to take .515 bullets and run them thru a die so that I can fit them to my Shiloh as a .515 will not chamber readily. A .510 bullet is a little looser in the case but when crimped seems to do just fine. I use the same die set. All works fine - go figure, but don't buy if you don't need. By the way I have fired the .510 bullet in my carbine and honestly can not discern a difference at 100 yds. It seems to bump up well enough to engage the rifling adequately.

When you read how commercial hunters loaded by the light of a fire shoving their pp bullets that were hand cast and unsized and simply shoved into the case mouth, it makes all the hoopla we go thru seem pretty superfluous. These guy's were killing out to 600 yds. I just want to hit a target at 100-200 yards with my .50's.

[Tascosa Joe]

Regarding sizing die - I have the standard die set and find I can use .515 in it just fine. Try it before you buy any custom die as you may not need it.

Interestingly I have to take .515 bullets and run them thru a die so that I can fit them to my Shiloh as a .515 will not chamber readily. A .510 bullet is a little looser in the case but when crimped seems to do just fine. I use the same die set. All works fine - go figure, but don't buy if you don't need. By the way I have fired the .510 bullet in my carbine and honestly can not discern a difference at 100 yds. It seems to bump up well enough to engage the rifling adequately.

When you read how commercial hunters loaded by the light of a fire shoving their pp bullets that were hand cast and unsized and simply shoved into the case mouth, it makes all the hoopla we go thru seem pretty superfluous. These guy's were killing out to 600 yds. I just want to hit a target at 100-200 yards with my .50's.

Yeah and besides all that how did they remove and seat the primers.  I guess with the fore runner to the Lyman 310 tool?

[James Hunt]

"how did they remove and seat the primers."

Actually the primers then were not seated as they are now. these early hunters used an awl like device to pick it out and a dowel like device to seat it. The sharps company offered reloading equipment that was pretty primitive. Nothing like pouring your powder in a shell by the light of a fire a few feet away. Makes Comanches seem pretty tame.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Trailrider,

I'm interested in one of the slings.  Give me a PM with the details.

James,

Perhaps there is a little misunderstanding.  I meant a 0.515 bullet sizing die for a lube/sizer.  At any rate, I have some 0.510 bullets and will have my 0.515 bullets in a few days.  I can compare them side-by-side and see if there is a difference in performance.

[James Hunt]

Early loading tools supplied by the Sharps company for an additional cost. The bullet seater was for gg only, pp bullets were merely hand pressed into the case. Note the pick for removing primers and the wad seater. By the way I don't seat a wad with my .50 gg bullet - again I can't tell the difference in either my carbine or Shiloh at 100 yards. Of course with paper patch you must use a grease cookie, the molds for making such and the die for cutting paper wads are seen below. Images from Sellers.



The image below is of a reloading set that was supposedly supplied by the government for reloading the .50 cartridge for surplus rifles and carbines (sharps conversion carbine) supplied to gvt employees after the cartridge ceased being used by the military. The story is a little shaky but it is the provenance that went with this kit.



Both are a bit short of what we use today. And again, commercial hunters were hitting buffalo out to 600 yards while the guy's back east were on the paper at 1000 yards.

[Trailrider]

Early loading tools supplied by the Sharps company for an additional cost. The bullet seater was for gg only, pp bullets were merely hand pressed into the case. Note the pick for removing primers and the wad seater. By the way I don't seat a wad with my .50 gg bullet - again I can't tell the difference in either my carbine or Shiloh at 100 yards. Of course with paper patch you must use a grease cookie, the molds for making such and the die for cutting paper wads are seen below. Images from Sellers.

[Image deleted from Trailrider's reply to save bandwidth.]

The image below is of a reloading set that was supposedly supplied by the government for reloading the .50 cartridge for surplus rifles and carbines (sharps conversion carbine) supplied to gvt employees after the cartridge ceased being used by the military. The story is a little shaky but it is the provenance that went with this kit.

Both are a bit short of what we use today. And again, commercial hunters were hitting buffalo out to 600 yards while the guy's back east were on the paper at 1000 yards.

Howdy, Pards,
I'm not sure about this equipment being used by QM Dept. employees with their .50-70 rifles (Springfield M1868 mostly, for those employed by Infantry units, Sharps M1869 Conversions for those working for the Cavalry).  Here's why:  In 1876, which is when the last Ordnance Returns that can be found in the National Archives records were reported, there were about 50,000 rounds of .50-70 Gov't. ammo at Sidney Barracks, NE, alone, plus the 5 Sharps Carbines I mentioned in previous posts.  The problem with the theory of utilizing these tools for reloading Government .50-70 ammo is that it was all inside-primed, copper-cased.  Yes, I've heard the stories (probably true...if you are desparate enough) about the Indians reloading fired cartridges.  But, most likely, these were commercial brass ammo, which was being manufactured after 1873.  Most of the commercial ammo used Berdan primers, which use a pair of flash holes in the case, plus a built-in anvil, also part of the case.  Decapping these required a special tool, or a pick.  Of course, never say, "Never!", but I suspect that by the time they ran out of the issue .50-70 ammo, the citizen employees would have acquired some other "artillery".

Your Pard,

[James Hunt]

Relevant to the second image - agreed. The associated provenance may have been apocryphal and meant to juice up the price of the item - however it is an interesting set of items.

One caveat is that while the military had thousands of rounds of internally primed cartridges commercial hunters did not like the military cartridge, would this have extended to gvt. hunters, teamsters, scouts? (Historical comments from commercial hunters who were given cartridges by the military indicates they often pulled the bullet, melted the lead and sold the powder - Sellers, Cook and other sources). Subsequently and as you point out commercially produced .50 gvt were available and used by hunters - would the kit have been associated with them?

I can not identify all of the elements in that kit, I have to guess on some. It is clearly beyond the original reloading equipment sold by the Sharps Co. Any guesses would be appreciated although I guess that is beyond the point of this thread.

[Trailrider]

Relevant to the second image - agreed. The associated provenance may have been apocryphal and meant to juice up the price of the item - however it is an interesting set of items.

One caveat is that while the military had thousands of rounds of internally primed cartridges commercial hunters did not like the military cartridge, would this have extended to gvt. hunters, teamsters, scouts? (Historical comments from commercial hunters who were given cartridges by the military indicates they often pulled the bullet, melted the lead and sold the powder - Sellers, Cook and other sources). Subsequently and as you point out commercially produced .50 gvt were available and used by hunters - would the kit have been associated with them?

I can not identify all of the elements in that kit, I have to guess on some. It is clearly beyond the original reloading equipment sold by the Sharps Co. Any guesses would be appreciated although I guess that is beyond the point of this thread.

Agreed! As a matter of fact, in a novel I've been trying to write for years now (as a retired aerospace engineer, my fiction keeps coming out like a technical paper! ), I had the young teamster (a fictionalized character, but based loosely on the young teamster that actuall appears to have used the Sharps carbine I posted) buy some commercial .50-70 ammo because he didn't trust the issued stuff not to jam his carbine in a firefight. He does this on the advise of the chief packer for Gen. Crook!  (Someday I may actually complete the novel...)