50-95 Mystery Bullet

[ndnchf]

I'm stumped on this one

I ordered Lyman 515139 bullets from Mt. Baldy and they arrived yesterday.  But they are not the same bullet that my Lyman 515139 mould makes and I mentioned this to them.  Here is a photo of the bullet they sent me and the box that was marked 515139:



Here is Lyman's description and image of the 515139:

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details-rifles.php?entryID=81

The Lyman 515139 is about .725" long, around 340gr and has 3 grease grooves.  The MT Baldy bullet is about .635" long, weighs 300gr and has 2 grease grooves.

I e-mailed Mt Baldy and asked and here is what Frank told me:

"The Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets ( 1958) says the 515139 is a lightweight bullet for use in the 50 calibers. I would guess you have the 512138 mold which should weigh about 450 grains. The text says this was designed by Mr.
Barlow ( who designed about all of the old Ideal molds) for the 50-95 Winchester and later adopted for the 50-110. The 512138 has four grease grooves in the picture, Lyman would make changes to mold numbers or run the cherry in deeper and stamp the mold with same number. "

It sounds like he is saying that they have changed the mould over the years.  What do you guys think?  This bullet seems ideal for the .50-95, but it sure doesn't seem like a 515139 to me.  Any idea what it is

[Chuck 100 yd]

.459 is a .45 caliber bullet not a .50!!  They must be mixed up!  I shoot .513 bullets in my .50-95. 

[Wes Tancred]

Ndnchf,

This is indeed a mystery. The bullets you have received from Mt Baldy look like the Lyman 515139, but with the bottom grease groove and base missing. Is it possible that a 515139 mould was modified to produce this lighter bullet?

The Lyman 515139 is a very versatile bullet, and the design has not been changed.

Even more intriguing is the mention of the 512138 bullet. A 450-grain bullet for the original 1876 .50-95 rifles, which had a very slow rifling twist? This heavy bullet might work in the new rifles, which have faster twists, and could make longer range more practical. I wonder if the 512138 was actually intended for the .50-100 heavy-bullet version of the .50-110 Winchester Express, rather than the .50-95?

[evodude]

I'd send them back and ask for the right bullet. Those are for the .45 calibers, not the .50's. Or just hang on to them till you buy a 1876 .45-75 to shoot them out of. (Id recommend the 22" Chaparral for $699 at CDNN!!)

[Hell-Er High Water]

This looks like the bullet that Buffalo Arms sells as their item No. 513330.  They list it as being .513 dia & 300 gr from 20:1 alloy and lubed with SPG.

The two photos look identical to me.  Check it out.

HHW

[ndnchf]

They are 50 cal.  They measure .5125" and weigh in at 300gr and have a .300 meplat.  The box was mismarked ".459, Frank admited that.  A second e-mail from him says that Lyman must have changed to the current bullet style   It is similar to the BACO 513300 bullet:
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4447.html

It seems like the perfect bulllet for the .50-95, but I still don't believe it is a Lyman 515139

[w44wcf]

ndnchf,
The Mount Baldy bullet looks like the IDEAL 518144 in their handbook dated 1897. It is listed at 285 grs. and is intended for the .50-70.

However, for bullet 512137 which is listed at 350 grs. it reads "This bullet 350 grs. is the standard ball for the .50-95 Winchester. One band shorter will make a bullet weighing about 280 grs., which bullet is thought well my many."

The 512139 is shown only in a sectioned view to show the hollow point. Based on that view, it appears that it has 4 driving bands and 3 grease grooves. No weight is listed only "This is the standard .50 WINCHESTER Express bullet."

Then, of course, there's the possibility that  IDEAL did make a 300 gr. non cataloged version of the 512139 with 1 less driving band to offset the weight reduction of the hollow point.

It would be interesting to know what the # is on the mold that Mount Baldy is using to make that bullet.......

It appears that 512139 is the 512137 with a hollow point.

w44wcf  

[Wes Tancred]

Alas, the Ideal 512139 and 512137 moulds have likely not been made in decades. They would be similar to, or the same as the moulds presented by Buck Stinson on the following thread:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?PHPSESSID=0b61da6d3092c836b212cdeeb485663d&topic=18745.10

Scroll down to the second message on that page.

The currently available Lyman 515139 (popular for .50-70 and .56-.50 Spencer replicas and central-fire conversions) is very close in shape to the Winchester bullet. I have thought about machining one of these for a hollow-point plug. With a short and a long plug, the same mould could cast both solid and hollow-point bullets. Then, one would turn one's attention to making dies to press the Express cups out of copper........

Hello, w44wcf! Is that 1897 Ideal handbook the one that was reprinted in a special edition of the Lyman-Ideal handbook? If so, I would be grateful to know what number edition that is.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

here is an online chart;

http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm

[ndnchf]

I had forgotten about this post from nearly a year ago.

I still have some of these mystery bullets.  Pulled one out and it does closely resemble the Lyman 518144, that could be it.  The bullets are very well formed and I'd guess they were cast in a quality, new mould.  But Mt. Baldy is either confused or just does not want to say what it really is, too bad.

BTW, I have Lyman handbook #39 dated 1953.  It shows the 518144 bullet mould availble at that time.  The is also the manual that contains a reprint of one ofthe first Ideal handbooks from the late 1880s.  Very interesting reading.

[w44wcf]

ndnchf,
According to the Ideal 1898 catalog, there were 2 versions of the 512137, a 350 gr. and a 300 gr.
Illustration below.


In the 1931 Ideal catalog in the Special List Of Ideal Bullets section, there is an illustration  of the 512137 - 300 gr. version that looks exactly like the Mt Baldy bullet.

Mystery solved!
w44wcf

[w44wcf]

Hello, w44wcf! Is that 1897 Ideal handbook the one that was reprinted in a special edition of the Lyman-Ideal handbook? If so, I would be grateful to know what number edition that is.

Wes,
The early Ideal handbook in the Lyman Handbook #39 referenced by ndnchf, is from the early 1890's and does not have any bullet illustrations. 1897 was the first year that bullet illustrations were added.

Cornell publications has a number of early Ideal handbook reprints.
http://www.cornellpubs.com/index.php

w44wcf

[w44wcf]

Here's a pic of the Special List Of Ideal Bullets  The 512137-300 gr. version is low right


w44wcf

[ndnchf]

In the 1931 Ideal catalog in the Special List Of Ideal Bullets section, there is an illustration  of the 512137 - 300 gr. version that looks exactly like the Mt Baldy bullet.

Mystery solved!
w44wcf

I think you are right, at least as close as we can tell by looking at it.  For whatever reason, Mt. Baldy seems to have given wrong information.  Too bad, because it is a good bullet.  It will be confusing to order from them when they call it a 515139.  Who knows what you may receive.

[w44wcf]

ndnchf,
The fact that the info showing the 2 different weight options for the 512137 is pretty obscure (only shown in a couple of long ago Ideal handbooks), it very well could be that since it is a 300 gr. bullet and the 512139 was once listed as a 300 gr. bullet, that #was chosen.

w44wcf