CUP Pressure in 1860 Henry:

[dcwilliams29id]

I would like to know to what pressure levels the 1860 Henry is safe to fire.  Is it manufactured for the weaker cowboy loads only, or would you be safe to fire the hotter loads that are still within the SAAMI specs for that round?  Also, for those who re-chamber in .44 special - is it ok to load to the 15,500 CUP or use ammunition like the buffalo bore "heavy" loaded ammunition (which is loaded right up to the SAAMI spec but does not exceed it? It is my understanding that Uberti made a few Henrys in .44 special.

I am trying to figure out a decent hunting load for the Henry (Eastern Whitetails). Thanks for any help or insight.

I believe the published SAAMI specs for each caliber is listed below:

Colt 45 - 14,000
44 Special - 15,500
.44-40 - 13,000

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Be careful how you quote max pressures. My Speer manual lists the following as max pressures for 44 Special, 44-40, and 45 Colt.

44 Sp 15,500 PSI
44-40 13,000 CUP
45 Colt 14,000 PSI

Note: PSI and CUP are not the same. PSI is pounds per square inch is usually measured with piezoelectric pressure gauges. CUP is an older method of measuring pressure. It stands for Copper Units of Pressure. Pressure was indicated by how much a standard copper plug was deformed in a pressure barrel. PSI is the more modern method and can more accurately track pressure. CUP is a static method. Unfortunately, there is no simple correlation between the two methods.

Anyhoo........

The brass framed Uberti and 1866 rifles should be able to take any SAAMI spec ammo without damaging the frame. You don't have to stick to Cowboy ammo. However I am a just a little bit leery of that 15,500 PSI figure for the 44Sp. I would also be darned sure the Buffalo Bore ammo was made to SAMMI max specs. It would be well worth a call to them to find out if they recommend their loads in the brass framed Henry. Mike Venturino does mention in his book Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West a brass framed Henry that was ruined by a few heavy loads. However he does not specify what the loads were.

Frankly, the 44-40 was a classic deer cartridge for many years before the 30-30 arrived, just regular plain old 44-40, and I don't know why you would need anything more powerful than standard SAAMI spec loads. Same for 45 Colt.

[Silver Creek Slim]

I harvested a WI whitetail last year with my Henry in .44-40. It was a 200gr bullet on top of a case full of FFFg BP. It hit it in the base of the neck and shattered the spine. The shot was about 30 yards in the woods.

Slim

[dcwilliams29id]

I sent the good folks at buffalo bore an email and this was their reply Saturday evening.  It looks like you would be Ok with their standard .45 load (Not the +P loads as he was sure to point out). I have read a lot of various opinions on the toggle link and seen everything from 13,000 to 18,000 (18,000 mentioned here: http://www.gunblast.com/Paco-Uberti1860.htm).  Just trying to discern the facts.  Looks like  negative on their .44 special ammo - as indicated in the email thread below.  Here are the stats for their .45 LC ammo.

STANDARD PRESSURE 45 Colt velocities
Item 3E - 255 gr.
S&W Mt. Gun (4 inch) 949 fps
Colt SAA 2nd generation (4 3/4 inch) 983 fps
Colt NF SAA 2nd generation (5.5 inch) 984 fps
Custom Ruger Bisley (5.5 inch Pac-Nor bbl) 1047 fps
Colt NF SAA 3rd generation ( 7.5 inch) 1053 fps

Item 3F - 200 gr.
S&W Mt. Gun (4 inch) 1015 fps
Colt SAA 2nd generation (4 3/4 inch) 1047 fps
Colt NF SAA 2nd generation (5.5 inch) 1038 fps
Custom Ruger Bisley (5.5 inch Pac-Nor bbl) 1136 fps
Colt NF SAA 3rd generation ( 7.5 inch) 1112 fps

Tim Sundles to me
show details Dec 5 (1 day ago)
You can use our "standard Pressure Heavy" 45 colt ammo in your rifle, but not our +P ammo. SAAMI standard pressure for the 45 colt is about 15,000 CUP which is what our "standard Pressure" 45 colt ammo is running.

Tim


----- Original Message ----- From: <sales@buffalobore.com>
To: <sales@buffalobore.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:53 PM
Subject: Contact Form Sent


Hi!

A message was sent to you from Chris Williams on Sat, 05 Dec 2009 18:53:24 -0500.

Here is their message:

Do you think your \"heavy\" loads would be acceptable in reproduction Uberti Toggle Link rifles?  They are manufactured in .44 special, .45 Colt - both of which you have standard \"heavy\" loads for. Do you have the CUP for each of these rounds?

Thanks,

Chris Williams

Chris Williams to Tim
show details 2:35 PM (58 minutes ago)
Tim,

Does the same apply for the .44 special heavy load? What is that loaded to?  I think SAAMI is 15,500PSI

Thanks,

Chris
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Tim Sundles to me
show details 3:17 PM (16 minutes ago)
NO. Our 44 SPL ammo is +P. It runs close to 17,000 CUP

Tim
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[Driftwood Johnson]

It looks like you neglected to tell them you were going to shoot these loads in a brass framed rifle. Toggle links are one thing, but a steel framed toggle link rifle is going to be stronger than a brass framed one. Even so, you cannot push a toggle link rifle like you can a stronger design like a Winchester Model 1892 or a Marlin Model 1894.

While we are at it, it is not necessarily a question of pressure, it is a question of recoil, regarding how much punishment a brass framed toggle link rifle will take. Of course the amount of recoil is directly proportional to the pressure generated by the load. But with a toggle link, it is the recoil impulse that tends to batter the mortises in the frame where the toggle links rotate. This can lead to excess headspace.

I strongly recommend you stick to SAMMI spec loads with your rifle. As I said earlier, the 44-40 round took countless deer before the introduction of the 30-30. I'm not a hunter, but I understand that shot placement is very important.