S-AW era Marine Khaki Uniform Specs

[Captain Barrett]

Folks,

Viewing images of the Grand Muster of Major Lewis in what appeared to be Marine khakis, I was wondering if, in fact, there were some exacting specifics one can use to replicate the USMC khakis of the S-AW era? From period pictures I have seen, the Marine khakis seemed to be a lighter shade of khaki than Army khakis. perhaps the Marine khakis were nothing more than white Undress uniforms stained with tea to a khaki-like shade. I have seen the image in Brassy's of the Marine Officer wearing khakis with the fall collar, while some pics taken at Guantanamo Bay after the Marines fought at Cozco Well show khakis with a stand collar...

Based on info I have found, I think the Marines went ashore at Gitmo in khakis with a standing collar and their version of the M1895 Undress Cap, of course, with M1895 Colt Navy double-action revolvers and M1895 Winchester Lee straight pulls as sidearms...

Can we discuss for a concensus on what was worn when?

[US Scout]

I've been looking into the early USMC khaki uniform for a couple of years.  The Marines wore a variety of field and campaign uniforms between 1892 and 1904.

In Cuba during the Spanish-American War Marines wore a variety of uniforms.  Initially the Marines landed wearing the navy blue flannel shirt and sky-blue wool trousers.  Then they shifted into the summer undress uniform dyed a "khaki" color with tea or coffee. 

In late 1898, after the experience of the 1st Battalion in Cuba, the Marines introduced a short-lived roll-collar cotton khaki blouse and trousers.  The National Marine Corps Museum at Quantico has one of these uniforms, though it is not on display, and I've been lucky enough to acquire some photographs of the blouse.

This early khaki field uniform was replaced in 1900 by the standing collar blouse which was worn in the Philippines with the navy blue flannel shirt.  The navy blue blouse and sky blue wool trousers were worn at Peking during the Boxer Rebellion. 

The 1900 campaign coat and trousers were made of 8oz khaki (tan) cloth.  I don't know how this compared to the Army khaki uniforms of the time, but since uniforms were made by several different manufacturers, I would not be surprised that the shades were slighly different, and the color probably faded from repeated washings.  I know the khakis I wore in the early 70s certainly faded over time and repeated washings.

US Scout
Brig Gen, GAF

[Niederlander]

General,
     From looking at some pictures of Marines wearing the blue flannel shirt, it would appear that the Marine version had white buttons.  Does anyone know if that's true?  I can't find the specs on the blue flannel shirt.  I've also located a picture of a First Lieutenant in 1898 wearing what sure appears to be a bell crown undress cap.  Was the chinstrap on that one like the one we have now, or was it the doubled gilt cord like the Army wore?
     Were holsters of 1898 russet or black?  The sources I've located seems to say they were brown, or russet, but some of the photos sure make them look black.

[US Scout]

General,
     From looking at some pictures of Marines wearing the blue flannel shirt, it would appear that the Marine version had white buttons.  Does anyone know if that's true?  I can't find the specs on the blue flannel shirt.  I've also located a picture of a First Lieutenant in 1898 wearing what sure appears to be a bell crown undress cap.  Was the chinstrap on that one like the one we have now, or was it the doubled gilt cord like the Army wore?
     Were holsters of 1898 russet or black?  The sources I've located seems to say they were brown, or russet, but some of the photos sure make them look black.

I'm pretty sure the buttons were white shell buttons but I'll have to double-check. 

In 1898, the Marines wore a cap very similar to that worn by the Army and Navy.  It was not the bell-crowned cap that was approved in the 1900 regulations.  I'll have to check on the chinstrap though.

Leather was russet.  However, as it was oiled it became darker and in photos appears a dark brown or almost black.

[Guns Garrett]

Yes, the flannel Marine fatigue pullover shirt is the same as the Army's, except it had white "pearl" buttons, including the pockets.  I ordered my shirt from Coon Creek, and requested the white buttons, and they put them on without charge.

I bought some khaki trousers from Wahmaker that are "fairly" close to those shown on pg 39 of Brassey's (my copy, anyway, and I think they're Army).  The color is a good match (I think Wah calls it "wheat").  The buckle on the back belt looks identical.   However, the Wahmakers DO NOT have belt loops, have only one hip pocket, and wrong-type buttons.  There's no ankle ties either, but with leggins on, who can tell?  
Buttons are an easy fix, and some tailoring "may" be able to put in the extra hip pocket, even the belt loops.

The differences may really matter only to an expert - your authenticity requirements may be more stringent.  Wahmaker's prices are less than the "sutler's", in most cases I think.

I believe the undress cap was the same as the 1895 Army, and I don't "think" it changed until 1905.  Of course the side buttons were USMC.  The cap is covered in blue wool, with a patent-leather visor.  You'll have to make your own white cover for summer undress.  Cap emblem is the 1892 version, having a smaller Eagle (in proportion to the Globe), and the globe has both the vertical "longitude" lines in addition to the "latitude" lines enscribed, and they are closer together.  The undress cap device was "gilt" (polished brass).  You can "bronze" the emblem with instant gun blue if you want to put it on a field hat.  Both cap and emblem are available from S & S Firearms.

Warning - my Wahmakers faded badly when I washed them, even in cold water.  Could pass for tropical-sun-bleached, I guess.

[Guns Garrett]

Oh, yeah...(in case your interested):

Not a good picture on my avatar over there on the left side of the page (from the 2005 GAF Muster), but that is a "1892 enlisted undress" blouse, modified from a current-issue dress blues enlisted blouse (bought off EBay for $25).  Not a lot of work to do, as the "cut" is basically the same.  Remove the pockets and belt loops.  I removed the lining, padding and "horsehair" stiffeners from the shoulders and chest area, to give it a looser, more "undress" look.  The "darts" or whatever those things are in the breast area aren't authentic to 1892, but what can you do on the cheap? The original collar has to be removed, and modified, to have a "v"-opening, this should eliminate the eyelets for the collar emblems.  If not, make a new collar from the removed pocket material.  Take most of the "stiffener" material out of the collar, too.  The 1892 buttons were slightly smaller than the ones used today, and the black plastic button (normally behind the belt buckle) is replaced with a brass button.  The sleeve cuffs and cuff buttons are the same (actually the "old" ones are more "domed", almost like a "half-ball"), and you can re-do the epaulettes if you want.  Modern blues have them sewn down to the shoulders.  Correct buttons (big and small) are available from S&S as well.  The 1892 Uniform regs are posted on the GAF Website, to get details.  I would say it's about 90% historically accurate; since it is a "shooting" uniform, I didn't want to spend a lot of $$$ on it.  I did one undress blouse and half-finished a dress blouse in one weekend; did it myself, AND I DON'T SEW! I did learn how to run a sewing machine couresy of my saintly patient wife. (She "doesn't sew", either, but at least she knows HOW)

NOTE: The illustration in Brassey's showing the Marines assaulting the Spanish Blockhouse at Cuzco Wells is inaccurate, showing the chevron's' colors reversed - should be yellow stripes on a red backing.  Note also they are wearing the ammo belt and suspenders for the 1895 6mm Winchester-Lee rifle, made of blue webbing, including the suspenders, but the ammo pouches for the loading clips are pebbled black leather.  Later, when Marines were issued Krags, they wore either the blue or khaki looped belt. (I guess some could have still used the old belts for Krag ammo.)  Good luck on finding ANYTHING related to the Lee (yes S&S does have parts), and expect to mortgage your house if you want to buy one!!! I exagerate - the last shooter I priced was a VERY reasonable $3,500.  Ammo is easy - make it from .220 Swift brass.  The Swift was originally a wildcat based on the 6mm, but clips might be hard to find.  

"Dress" version is about the same, differences are mostly in more red piping and "lace" trim (bias tape), and addition of red-piped belt loops, and the buff leather belt.  Buckle is a plain rectangle, no emblem.  The Dress blouse is supposed to be slightly longer than Undress, but it's barely noticeable.  Coon Creek can set you up with a Full-Dress helmet, (so I was told by them) but they are expensive.

[Captain Barrett]

Guns,

NOTE: The illustration in Brassey's showing the Marines assaulting the Spanish Blockhouse at Cuzco Wells is inaccurate, showing the chevron's' colors reversed - should be yellow stripes on a red backing. Note also they are wearing the ammo belt and suspenders for the 1895 6mm Winchester-Lee rifle, made of blue webbing, including the suspenders, but the ammo pouches for the loading clips are pebbled black leather. Later, when Marines were issued Krags, they wore either the blue or khaki looped belt. (I guess some could have still used the old belts for Krag ammo.) Good luck on finding ANYTHING related to the Lee (yes S&S does have parts), and expect to mortgage your house if you want to buy one!!! I exagerate - the last shooter I priced was a VERY reasonable $3,500. Ammo is easy - make it from .220 Swift brass. The Swift was originally a wildcat based on the 6mm, but clips might be hard to find.  

If I can ever afford to get to a Grand Muster, I will bring along my M1895 Winchester Lee Navy. Once I get the cash, I am going to have some Marine Captain uniforms made up, though I am going to try my hand at making a Lee Navy ammo belt up first..

[Guns Garrett]

Ohhh, Capt. B., you got me turnin' green!

[Niederlander]

Guns,
If I can ever afford to get to a Grand Muster, I will bring along my M1895 Winchester Lee Navy. Once I get the cash, I am going to have some Marine Captain uniforms made up, though I am going to try my hand at making a Lee Navy ammo belt up first..

The S & S Firearms catalog has some parts for that ammo belt in it.  Might be a good place to start.

[pony express]

Captain B, you could finance your trip to the Muster by charging people to drool over that Lee-Navy!

[Captain Barrett]

PE,

Captain B, you could finance your trip to the Muster by charging people to drool over that Lee-Navy!

With all that drool, I would be afraid of it rusting!!!

[pony express]

PE,
With all that drool, I would be afraid of it rusting!!!

\

I'll be sure to bring some extra gun rags and oil.....

[Major Matt Lewis]

That Major Matt Lewis sure ia a handsome devil in that uniform.  I got the coat and trousers from The Quarter Masters Shop.  I think they are the 1899 versions.  The one mistake I think I made was putting on brass buttons instead of the black ones from my service alphas.  It's the list, but not a priority.

[Major Matt Lewis]

Oh and my shirt is the 1883 blouse with white buttons sewn on....