30 grs of Swiss FFG in the .44-40 = AIRSPACE

[w44wcf]

In a separate thread, Bufallow Red spoke of loading 30 gr. Swiss FFG in the .44-40 under a "Big Lube" bullet.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,28465.0.html

Having reloaded many .44-40 cartridges with Swiss, that sounded a bit light to me since Swiss is more dense than other b.p.'s .

So I dumped 30 grs. into a .44-40 case and checked the headspace (distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the powder) and it = .37".  

The seating depth of the Mav Dutchman is .32" if crimped in the crimp groove.

.37 -.32 = .05" of airspace.

Now that's not going to hurt anything but a better loading would be to add 3 grs. more so that there will be at least a little compression.

If loading with Lee scoops, a rounded 1.9CC will give  32.5 grs.  A 2.2 CC not tapped and leveled off with a card =35.5 grs
A 2.2 CC tapped = 37 grs.  THese measurements taken with the Swiss FFG I have.

w44wcf

[Pulp]

I've never used Swiss.  I'm surprised to learn it's that much heavier than Goex.  Once again, it brings to light, USE VOLUME, NOT WEIGHT!

Thanks for sharing.

[Ranch 13]

On the Swiss being denser stuff. WElllll maybe, but if you examine it close the european 2f is much closer in size to what goex calls 3f. No 30 grs goex 3f won't take up as much room as goex 2f either. Fewer F's bigger kernels+more bulk. Firm contact with the bullet with any bp is always recommended.
Blackpowder charges are historically referred to in grains or drams weight. The volume nonsense is a direct result of the fakey stuff, ie so called "bp substitutes".

[Fox Creek Kid]

I just use the Lee 2.2 cc scoop which is approx. 32 - 33 gr. if I remember correctly. I've drop tubed 40 gr. slowly and compressed using GOEX but the 2.2 cc scoop seems to hit the "sweet spot" in my Colts.

[w44wcf]

Here's the weight of the b.p's I have on hand with the powder measure set to dispense 40.0 grs. of Swiss FFG:
Lightest to heaviest
KIK 2F.............33.7
GOEX 3F..........35.6
GOEX 2F......... 35.8
SCHUETZEN 2F 37.0
SCHUETZEN 3F 37.2
SWISS 1 1/2 F..39.0
SWISS 3F.........39.3
SWISS 2F.........40.0

Other lots might weigh slightly different but this at least shows the approximate relationship between the brands.

Fox Creek Kid,
I like the 2.2CC also if I am using using a scoop. As you said it seems to hit the "sweet spot".

w44wcf

[Noz]

Driftwood Johnson explains this on occasion.
There is no such thing as a grain volume.
Grain is a measure of weight.
You that are measuring only volume are doing a grain weight equivalent.
Either report powder quantities in grains/weight or CCs or Cubic inches of volume.
I have 4 different black powder brass measures that all measure slightly different weights for a set volume.
As has been noted, all different types and granulations of Black Powder weigh a different amount per unit of volume.
The best measuring system for what we do is to fill the case to the point of allowing some compression and calling it good whether it takes 37 grs/weight or 2.2 CCs.
The only measurement that will transfer from your powder and system to mine is the 2.2CCs. The grain weight is only consistent if you use the same type of scale and the identical lot of powder.

[john boy]

Here's the weight of the b.p's I have on hand with the powder measure set to dispense 40.0 grs. of Swiss FFG:
Lightest to heaviest
KIK 2F.............33.7
GOEX 3F..........35.6
GOEX 2F......... 35.8
SCHUETZEN 2F 37.0
SCHUETZEN 3F 37.2
SWISS 1 1/2 F..39.0
SWISS 3F.........39.3
SWISS 2F.........40.0

John, thanks for the analysis and having shot all the powder granulations you listed, I can relate to all except the higher density of Swiss FFg compared to Swiss FFFg. If I had to guess, it would be Swiss 3F would be heavier than 2F because of the grain size.  Both Swiss granulations are polished the same so when the grain size is screened they will nest equally with the same moisture content of 0.5% water and have more grains per volume

Goex is less dense than the others except KIK because Goex uses red maple as their charcoal which is much lighter than Alder Blackthorn which is the charcoal used for KIK - Schuetzen and Swiss.  Add that Goex uses less mill wheel and polishing time then Schuetzen and Swiss - thus is less dense

Both KIK and Schuetzen use Alder Blackthorn that is purchased from Slovenia and presume the creosote and carbon content during charring is reduced by the subcontractor by the temperature they use in their retorts.  Swiss on the other hand, prepares their charcoal in house under strict processing procedures and char it in the retorts at 320C which leaves a higher water content - cresote and carbon.

In addition, looking at KIK, the grains are angular like those of Goex due to less mill wheel time and polishing

As for Schuetzen, per James Kirkland, President of Schuetzen Powder LLC ... they have reformulated their sporting powder to get closer to the quality of Swiss - meaning higher velocities.  The powder is in the US now but Maine Powder I presume is selling off the earlier lots before they sell the new stuff

And FYI, the new powder on the US market is Diamondback.  Powder Inc has it.  It is a reformulation of Elephant from S/A Pernambuco in Brazil.  Ten bucks a pound!
http://www.powderinc.com/cgi-bin/bpstore/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=thispage&thispage=orderDB.htm&ORDER_ID=856505412

[Cuts Crooked]

....leaving Swiss as the most expensive BP to shoot there is!!!!!!

I's good stuff, no question, but I never realized just how expensive it is, over the counter it costs more per pound, and shooting it gets you fewer shots per pound! (if yer loading by volume rather than weight, as most do)

[Dick Dastardly]

Take a 44-40 case that hasn't been resized, drop in Genuine Powder, the One True Powder, Black Powder and push in a Mav Dutchman Big Lube® bullet firmly with your thumb.  A good load will be one where your full thumb pressure compresses the powder so that the bullet stops at the crimp grove.  That's the VOLUME of Holy Black, regardless of maker, that makes a fine black powder 44-40 cartridge.

It's called the DD "Rule of Thumb". . . .

DD-DLoS

[Ranch 13]

Most excellent point Cuts.

When I set my lyman 55 to throw a charge for my 45-70's the weight variation from brand to brand isn't quite so dramatic as what has been posted here. For the most part there's no need to change the measure going from goex 3f to the european 2fs, both powders will weigh out about 3 grs heavier than goex 2f or cartridge,without changing the drums on the measure .

[john boy]

Here's my take on what powders:
For CAS, Skirmage Fg for shotshells and KIK FFg for revolvers and rifle
For BPCR, I'm striving for the highest velocity I can get in a case with compression that doesn't distort the load for long range.  This said, Swiss is my powder of choice.  Have been a primary user of Swiss 1.5 and do have some recipes with FFg and FFFg.  Based on John's volume-weight analysis ... the extra fps to be gained using Swiss FFg looks like the way to go. 
PS ...
I charge by weight only for CAS and BPCR!

[Fox Creek Kid]

I've loaded 40 gr. Swiss FFg in a 44-40 case SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWLLYY drop tubed & compressed slowly as well. Talk about a handful!!   

[Ranch 13]

  Yup load those wcf cartridges the way they were intended to be, and it's soon apparent why they were so popular. Same with the 45 colt, get that 255 bullet sizzling out the barrel at 900 fps behind that cloud of smoke and it's immediately apparent why it's hung on for so long.

[john boy]

Here's the weight of the b.p's I have on hand with the powder measure set to dispense 40.0 grs. of Swiss FFG:

John, while we are on the subject of volume charges to scale weight, here's some that I did ...
I went to my inventory of original powders (black powder) and poured each vendor granulation that I have into a volumetric measure set at 100grs. I over filled the measure to insure that there were 100grs with the excess spilling into a dish. Then each of the 100gr volumes of powder were measured by weight on a digital scale, accurate to 0.1gr
The results by scale weight, lightest to heaviest:
Goex Cartridge ....... 90.2gr
DuPont FFg ............. 91.2gr
KIK FFFg ................. 91.9gr
Goex Cowboy ......... 94.1gr
Goex FFFg .............. 94.4gr
Meteor FFg ............. 94.4gr
Meteor FFFg ........... 97.0gr
Goex Express FFg ... 97.2gr
Schuetzen FFFg ...... 97.8gr
KIK FFg .................. 99.2gr
Swiss FFFg ............. 102.3gr
DuPont Fg .............. 102.6gr
Skirmish Fg ............ 102.7gr
Swiss 1.5 ............... 104.4gr
Swiss FFg ............... 104.9gr

And when you read Captain Baylor's article in this months CC about subs remember it is dead nuts incorrect!

"It should be noted 100gr of blackpowder by volume is 100gr by weight"

[w44wcf]

John,
Thank you for the additional, interesting info. The larger weight spread between some of the same brands with different granulations would perhaps seem to indicate less control over the components used to make the different batches.....

w30wcf 

[1860]

John,

Yes, you need to add a liitle more Swiss by volume than something like Goex, unless you like to play with fillers.  It does not need as much compression as Goex either, it's already pretty dense so just a little compression is all that is needed.  If you are shooting vintage guns where the rifleing may not be the best, the extra cost is well worth it.  I have one old Winchester that would loose accuracy after 10 rounds with Goex, with Swiss I can get 30 sometimes more depending on the weather. 

60

[Buffalow Red]

In a separate thread, Bufallow Red spoke of loading 30 gr. Swiss FFG in the .44-40 under a "Big Lube" bullet.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,28465.0.html

Having reloaded many .44-40 cartridges with Swiss, that sounded a bit light to me since Swiss is more dense than other b.p.'s .

So I dumped 30 grs. into a .44-40 case and checked the headspace (distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the powder) and it = .37".  

The seating depth of the Mav Dutchman is .32" if crimped in the crimp groove.

.37 -.32 = .05" of airspace.

Now that's not going to hurt anything but a better loading would be to add 3 grs. more so that there will be at least a little compression.

If loading with Lee scoops, a rounded 1.9CC will give  32.5 grs.  A 2.2 CC not tapped and leveled off with a card =35.5 grs
A 2.2 CC tapped = 37 grs.  THese measurements taken with the Swiss FFG I have.

w44wcf

just noticed this today , got me wondering so i went to shed to check with my old muzzleloader tube measure yup 30 grains .
then i took the lee double disc powder measure apart to see what i was useing . it s a
doudle stack 1.18 disc & 1.02 disc. that  gives about 2.2 lee dipper full or old muzzleloader tube measure 30 grains
i used a stick measure on powder in case & compared it to boolit height looks like about 1/16" compression
i noticed new cases not sized holds less powder than a  fired sized  case

[Noz]

Here's my take on what powders:
For CAS, Skirmage Fg for shotshells and KIK FFg for revolvers and rifle
For BPCR, I'm striving for the highest velocity I can get in a case with compression that doesn't distort the load for long range.  This said, Swiss is my powder of choice.  Have been a primary user of Swiss 1.5 and do have some recipes with FFg and FFFg.  Based on John's volume-weight analysis ... the extra fps to be gained using Swiss FFg looks like the way to go. 
PS ...
I charge by weight only for CAS and BPCR!

John Boy. Local information is that Skirmish is no more and that the plant that makes KIK has recently closed.

[Pony Racer]

JB, Interestingly enough I told Capt Baylor about my use of APP with BP lube in my Converted 51 Navies about a year or so ago.

I am not sure what gunk that gums everything up that he is talking about

I had to wipe the face of the cylinder more when I used modern lube with APP than when I switched to BP lube and have had very little trouble at all.

Course now I shoot mostly BP only with BP lube.

He did thank me for sending him the note.

PR