Is damascus PC?

Galloway · October 05, 2009, 08:22:42 PM

I havent seen many antique knives with damascus blades and was wondering if they were popular during the frontier era. Particularly with bowies. Thanks

St. George · October 05, 2009, 11:26:02 PM

Damascus wasn't around nearly as much as Louis L'Amour would have one believe.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

ChuckBurrows · October 06, 2009, 05:07:01 AM

Yes Pattern Welded steel was available and used on higher end knives, but generally was not etched to show the pattern as is currently done on knife blades but was rather polished bright so it is difficult to differentiate from plain steel when looking at originals. This fact alone makes it difficult to say how common it was. On the other hand shear steel - a commonly used cutlery steel even for lower end knives - by the very nature of it's construction can be considered to be a random pattern Damascus. Other types of Pattern Welded steel as well as knives made from it, were made in India which was of course at that time part of the British Empire and those items were exported to England and then to the US - England being the largest supplier of Bowies to the US and elsewhere.........

Jean Jacques Perret wrote a treatise in 1787 on cutlery and discussed how Pattern welded Damascus was made and the fact that it was being faked - implying that the real was used often enough to be worth faking it.

IMO - the use of etched pattern welded is thus way over done......and considering the added expense of Damscus a good plain steel blade is the "best" way to go for those choosing to have their gear as well documented as possible.......

Hope this helps - you're cousin Nolan

Books OToole · October 06, 2009, 09:28:23 AM

Quote from: ChuckBurrows on October 06, 2009, 05:07:01 AM

IMO - the use of etched pattern welded is thus way over done......and considering the added expense of Damscus a good plain steel blade is the "best" way to go for those choosing to have their gear as well documented as possible.......

Hope this helps - you're cousin Nolan

Amen.

Books

WaddWatsonEllis · October 28, 2009, 04:51:03 PM

So, what is the concensus? Is Damascene 'good' or 'bad' historically?

Since I have just ordered a damascene Belduque, this inquiring mind wants to know ....

But, besides possibly paying 'way to much to get the damascene blade, I am guessing that no one is going to make me to pull my knife at a shoot just to see if it is damascene or not....

I grew up overseas as an AF Brat .... and had a damascene Moroccan snaphance for a playtoy .... God knows what it would be worth if I still had it!

But the moral of this story is that I have tremendous respect for the damascene processs, and would have probably ordered the blade that way regardless.

So while I am interested in your thoughts on the subject, I am pleased with my purchase and would probably order the same again ....

Will Ketchum · October 28, 2009, 05:42:43 PM

I have a Damascus knife that is over 200 years old. It is Persian but has been in this country for about 200 years, or so the guy I got it from was told. It isn't unreasonable to think that some Marines and sailors might have brought home such knives after the fight with the pirates of Tripoli. They well could have found their way to the American West.

Will Ketchum

Books OToole · October 28, 2009, 06:27:49 PM

Quote from: WaddWatsonEllis on October 28, 2009, 04:51:03 PM

So, what is the concensus? Is Damascene 'good' or 'bad' historically?

So while I am interested in your thoughts on the subject, I am pleased with my purchase and would probably order the same again ....

It is highly unlikely that you would have had a damascus blade in the old west.

Possible, but highly unlikely.

Books

WaddWatsonEllis · October 28, 2009, 06:52:34 PM

Ah, well,

It looks like I will just have to deal with the knowldge that the knife is not PC ...

But I really like the properties of a damascene blade, and I will just have to keep it in the sheath; and with an 8"+ blade, that's probably a good idea anyway .... *S* kinda like a sikh blade, where the myth says it must draw blood every time it is out of its sheath ... even if it is its owner's blood ....

I have Belduque with a 5 1/4" blade that will go on my pistol belt, and that can be used to cut string, spread peanut butter and slice a steak .... the blade length is like a steak knife anyway... *S*

Galloway · October 30, 2009, 07:54:52 AM

Whats a beduque pard?

WaddWatsonEllis · October 30, 2009, 10:33:02 AM

Galloway,

Two months ago that would have been my questions as well ...

I have heard Belduques were the 'Latin' equivalient of a Bowie knife, used much the same way ...
They seem to be drived from French and Spanish cuterlery, and are defined by having:

1.) a curved ent at the hilt to give the pinkie finger some purchase.

2.) No quillions; and almost a kitchen knife end to the blade.

3.) a dropped tip that has a certain abmount of sharpened area on the oppositie side of the blade from the traditionall sharpened area.

4>) But no recurved tip like a Bowie....

These defintions are mine, and are probably not that clear. Here are some excerpts and scripts:

http://www.delarondeforge.com/Knife_pic_8_belduques_3_w_damascus_72.JPG

http://www.sanjacinto-museum.org/The_Battle/Weapons/Blades/Blades

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

The Elderly Kid · October 30, 2009, 03:07:25 PM

WWE,
That's a fascinating article about the gaucho knives, the most comprehensive I've read. I've always liked the belduque/Mediterranean dirk design, and I had one made a couple of years ago. I wanted a knife such as one of LaFitte's pirates might have carried, or the sort that might have been used in the dives and duelling grounds of New Orleans and Natchez in the days before the Bowie became the standard fighting knife. Mine has an 11" blade and to give it a New World look it has an s-curved iron guard. It gets some attention from people more accustomed to Bowies.

WaddWatsonEllis · October 30, 2009, 04:29:05 PM

EK,

Great Monniker, by the way....

In the last month, I have been on the recieving end of a crash course on the Californio way of life ... when I signed on to be a docent, I figured I could just wear a vaquero jacket, a sombrero, a couple of Ruger Old Armies, and my Bowie.

Just how wrong I was was brought out by a thread still in the Historical form about Californios ... turned our I was lucky enough to have several people with historical Masters Degrees who are hard at work keeping me 'honest' ... so I have a little trade Belduque (5 1/2" blade), and have a person making a much bigger damascene one to act as a 'boot knife' that I will tuck into my Botas de Alas (Mexican/Californio leather leggings they wore like cowboys wore chaps)...

Attached is a stylized picture of Californios ... and one shows his Belduque handle coming out of his Botas ....