M/L scattergun in main match?

[Dutchman Dick]

Has anybody ever used a muzzle-loading shotgun as a main match gun? Are they even "game legal"? According to Firearms of the American West(vol. 2) by Garavaglia, muzzle-loading shotguns remained popular, and available, long past the introduction of self-contained centerfire shells. Granted they'd be slow to reload, but style points galore (plus points just for having the sheer chutzpa to use one in the first place! )!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I havn't had the ##'s to try, but I did develop paper cartridges for ML shotguns.  Even then, you have to keep your wits about you to avoid ruining a cartridge, or getting the proper load in the proper barrel.  I'll look up the link on my experiments.

Here's the link, my experiments are the last two posts;

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,8870.0.html

[Pettifogger]

SASS rules when read in context talk about cartridge shotguns.  The rules don't specifically prohibit muzzle loading shotguns, but SASS is not a muzzle loaders sport.  They do allow cap & ball revolvers, but rifles and shotguns have to be cartridge as there is no way you are going to reload a muzzle loader on the clock with any degree of speed or safety.  Style points won't win you any friends when its 100 plus degrees and you have every posse backed up.  Don't know about NCOWS.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

When our club in Victoria BC Canada started up about 15 or so years ago there was a local class.  I think it was called "buckskinner".  Two Cap 'n Ball revolvers, any single shot rifle, and any double shotgun with hammers. Neither the rifle nor the shotgun were reloaded.  The stage was fired according to the directions but only one rifle shot, & two shotgun blasts. I haven't seen anyone in that class for years.

[Dr. Bob]

NCOWS has the "Pistoleer" class which required C & B revolvers, a pistol caliber rifle and only two shotgun tgts per stage.  ML doubles are fine!  I don't shoot this class, but there were 6 -10 at the NCOWS Nationals week before last!  NCOWS also allows the use of single shot rifles in regular classes.  The fellow was kind of slow, but had lots of fun!

[Fiddler Green]

Last September, during the Faultline Shootist's Annual Adobe Walls, I shot the Plainsmen's side match and have to say: "that's the ticket!"; BP (or subs) only, no two handed pistol shooting, single shot rifles, single or double barrel shotguns (no pumps). You used two pistols, and did have multiple re-loads on the rifle and shotgun, but, it was  more competitive then the main match where people short stroke their rifles and use pump shotguns.


As I recall, about half the people shot C&B pistols: I did. Reloading my 45/70, H&R 1871 under such tight time constraints was fun. There were about 4 re-loads of the rifle per stage, and about 4 shotgun shells per stage. Ranges were typical CAS distances and that made it really easy to hear the "Blang" of the 535 grain bullets from my 45/70: but, the Martini-Henry stole the show!

I just wish there were more of those kinds of matches.

[Jamie]

It seems to me that as long as people didn't mind waiting, and you were shooting for fun, not for score, it could be just that - fun.  A friend and I shot a round of trap, me with a T/C New Englander single barrel, and him with a CVA Trapper single barrel.  We each shot in the neighborhood of 15 out of 25, and people had been begging us for 2 weeks to do it.  They watched with alot of laughs and jabs, and it was a good time.  The whole time, however, I was really concerned that there might be a discharge as we poured powder down the barrel (premeasured charges to be sure) because we were hurrying somewhat, knowing that we were holding everyone up.  After every shot, we'd blow down the barrel, probably not legal I would think in competition - in order to hopefully finish off any errant sparks "down below"  before the next charge hit the breechplug.  A discharge at that point would have been disconcerting to say the least - can you say "permanent tattoo?" or possibly even blinding.  Sending down a premade paper "cartridge" made, at least partially with nitrated paper at anything other than a snail's pace would be downright terrifying.  For anything more than two shots per stage, where you'd have to load quickly, it seems like it could be horrifically risky.  An understanding crew and less stressed circumstances, or simple doubles at every stage, or at least only using a C and B double at those stages where only doubles were demanded, could be a lot of fun, however.  It would, I suspect, also be far truer to the old West reality as well.  As I've suggested occasionally before, the average person sure wasn't sporting the latest in personal armament.  What they had made do, and I suspect that there were, well into the 1890's more C and B shooters, especially in handguns than cartridge gun shooters.  I sure could be wrong too.
Jamie

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

My trial paper shotgun cartridges were not with nitrated paper.  They were made with brown bag paper, same as the wino's use; - quite strong. In use, the folded paper end was torn off and discarded.  Powder was poured into the appropriate barrel, and then the remainder of the cartridge complete with paper wrap that functioned as an O/P card, lubed cushion wad, shot and O/S card was put into the muzzle, where it hung up on the O/S card, ready to be rammed.  Both barrels could be half-loaded, and then both barrels rammed in succession.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Sorry to bust your balloon, but just because a gun existed in the Old West does not mean it is SASS legal. Here is the just of shotgun requirements for SASS:

SHOTGUN REQUIREMENTS

Any side-by-side or single shot shotgun typical of the period from approximately 1860
until 1899 with or without external hammers, having single or double triggers is allowed.
Automatic ejectors are allowed on single shot break action, lever and pump action shotguns
ONLY. Side-by-side shotguns may not use automatic ejectors. Lever action, tubular feed,
exposed hammer shotguns of the period are allowed, whether original or replicas. The only
slide action shotgun allowed is the Model 1897 Winchester shotgun, whether original or
replica. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of shotgun and ammunition to be
used. Military configurations are not allowed (i.e., trench guns). Please see the shooting
categories for further information.

SHOTGUN GAUGES

• Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 20 gauge
and no larger the 10 gauge.
• Slide action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 16 gauge and no larger than 12 gauge.
• Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action centerfire shotguns in .410 gauge are allowed
within the Buckaroo Category only.



Muzzle loaders are not centerfire.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

YABUT!   That wouldn't be fair to those fellows who have worked so hard to make a shottie into a machine gun.

Seriously, you have a real point.

Back to the original question.  Reloading a Muzzleloader on the clock is fraught with issues!  Even when I was buckskinning no one ever timed a reload.  Remember the mantra?  FIRSTTHEPOWDERTHENTHEBALL!

[Jamie]

Good thought Sir Charles on brown bagging it.  I was actually thinking about a self-contained put together "shell" for the shotgun consisting of a nitrated paper contained powder charge attached to a plastic shot cup filled with shot, and contained by a wad taped over the top in some fashion - there was an example in an old Gun Digest that looked very do-able.  It would clearly be faster in a non-choked gun, but of course it would also be riskier.  According to one comment it's a bit irrelevant in that non-centerfires are illegal anyway, except perhaps in special circumstances specified by the stage or some form of side match.  Oh well.  Interesting, at any rate.
Jamie

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I tried to ram a plastic wad filled with shot - ONCE.  It didn't work, as it seemed to me that the shot being pressed downward also pressed outward making the filled wad into a plug.  That was my limited experience.

As is stated repeatedly - YORE MILEAGE MAY VARY!

[Springfield Slim]

Don't forget that ML this weekend, Bruce. I'm bringing one or two of mine.

[Dutchman Dick]

I was just wondering, since I have a neat - and VERY authentic - shotgun on layaway at a local gun shop. It started out as a M1842 .69 caliber musket, stamped "1845" on the lockplate. Some time, most likely after the Civil War, the forestock (and possibly the barrel) was cut back, and it looks to me as though the original front barrel band was modified by removing the sight blade and now holds the barrel to the shortened forestock.A short steel tube was hard-soldered/brazed to the bottom of the barrel to hold the original steel ramrod in place. The bore still looks really good. Overall there is a brown patina. The gun appears to be used, but not abused. According to Firearms of the American West(volume 2), guns like this would have cost about $3.00 in the 1860's and 1870's. I am trying to put together an "early-post-Civil War" outfit, consisting of a 3rd Model Dragoon, 1860 Army (although my local group will allow me to use my Starr DA in single-action mode - it's REALLY obvious when you use it in single-action vs double-action), Henry rifle (in .44-40), and an appropriate shotgun. I have an old Belgian side-lever 12 gauge that I'm trying to put back into shooting order, but I'm not sure when side-lever guns came out. All I know is, mine was a cheap Westly Richards knock-off with fluid steel barrels, and according to the proofs it was made no later than 1892. At least I KNOW the cut-down musket is authentic. Of course, so would my 20-gauge Northwest Trade Gun, as they were made in flintlock form well into the 1880's (and in percussion form past 1900!), but I really don't feel like fussing with a flinter at a CAS match...