Use of lubed wads in cartridge cases ?

[Long Gulch]

I have recently aquired my first real gunpowder after having used subs for a while.
The question is , can I use the wads I use for cap and ball in cartridge cases in the same manner?
That is to say between powder charge and projectile.
Does the wad contain enough lube for 51/2 inch handguns and 20 inch rifle barrels?
Do I need to add some sort of barrier between wad and powder to prevent lube migration?

Any experience or comments pro or con would be most helpful.

(BTW The question arises from the want of the use of my supply of smokyless bullets)

Thanks, Long Gulch

[Deadguy]

Yes, lubed wads will work in a cartridge...BUT (you knew there was one!) you will need to use a cardboard card between both the wad and the powder AND between the wad and the bullet.  ALSO, make sure that the powder charge is only lightly compressed, otherwise you may end up extruding the lube from the wad past the card and into the powder, contaminating your powder and reducing the power of your load, or killing the powder entirely.  So, yes, it can be done, but it is a little more work.

[Ranch 13]

About the only time a lubed wad serves much purpose in a cartridge is when shooting paper patch.
Altho your deal where you want to shoot smokeless lubed bullets a lube wad might just work. You'll need a fiber wad between the powder and the lubed wad, and you'll want to fiddle with the powder charge some to see what's going to work the best.

Might just be best to melt the smokeless lube out of those bullets in boiling water, and relube them with good bp cartridge lube.

[Fiddler Green]

To tell the truth, I've fired plenty of "smokeless" bullets through my hand guns using BP. Not really much of a diffrence with the BP bullets.

The rifle is a diffrent story. The smokeless lube builds up about 2/3 of the way down the barrel and is hell to clean.


Bruce

BTW: I was shooting Oregon Cast Bullets, Goex Cowboy and Cartridge in .45 Colt.

Bruce

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Long Gulch,

Good to see you here.  Welcome to camp.  Pull up a stump and sit a spell.

The way I see it, there are Two good options for your smokeyless heathen fad bullets.

Option 1, get some sub/replica powder to use them up with and save your Holy Black for bullets designed for Genuine Powder.

Option 2, dump 'em into the melter and cast some proper black powder design bullets.

Either way, it's a no wad no fuss solution with good results.

Welcome to the Darkside.

DD-DLoS

[August]

Can you tell us more about the specifics of what you are trying to accomplish???  What caliber are we talking about and what gunz are you using.  The type of load, bullet, and wad choice are all dependent on these things.

[Long Gulch]

Thanks for all the input.It sure gives me confidence to go further!

Deadguy, Thanks for the info. I'll go slow on working up these first loads.

Ranch13, You've got a point there with relubing.

Dick Dastardly, Thanks for the welcome. I've still got plenty of subs to use up a lot of smokyless lubed bullets, However I'm gettin the itch for boom, smoke  AND FIRE! What would be the out come to recast the hard cast alloy into a Big Lube profile and use a load of BP? Leading, lack of obturation, etc.? I have the equiptment for casting, just not done much as yet.

August, I guess my main goal is to use my ample supply of smokeyless lubed bullets without having to purchase a softer alloy compatable bp bullet and not have to resort  to grease cookies. Caliber wise it's .44Russian, in either 51/2 inch '72 open tops or Vaqueros with 45/8 barrels. The rifle is a 20 inch '66 yellerboy in the same caliber. The bullet of choice is 165 grain RNFP cast at .430 dia. The powder load will be Diamondback in FFFg.

Thanks all, LG

[Adirondack Jack]

If ya must run real charcoal with "wrong" bullets, I'd think real hard about using a pan of HOT water to try and melt the hard lube off the bullets, then use a grease cookie under em instead of a lubed wad.  Sandwich some soft lube between a walters hard card and a milk carton wad (hard walters wad on top the powder, milk carton under the bullet, lubw cookie inbetween), and see how that works.

[Fox Creek Kid]

When you boil off or cook off smokeless lube it makes a mess. Throw the bullets in a large metal dog dish outside and then put in some gasoline. They will de-lube quickly and no mess.

[Ranch 13]

If you wait just long enough for that lube to setup on top of the water, you can take it out of the pan in a nice thin slice, and use it for wax checks with smokeless loads later on.

[Roosterman]

I use smokeless bullets with BP all the time. Just reduce the powder a bit so you have room for a card and a grease cookie. Works great and I don't boil out the smokeless lube. Only way I have found to shoot BP in a 30" barreled lever rifle with out having to wipe between stages.
At SASS distances it's not important to sandwich the cookie between two cards, grease on the back side of the bullet at such short ranges seems to make no difference.

[Fiddler Green]

I use smokeless bullets with BP all the time. Just reduce the powder a bit so you have room for a card and a grease cookie. Works great and I don't boil out the smokeless lube. Only way I have found to shoot BP in a 30" barreled lever rifle with out having to wipe between stages.
At SASS distances it's not important to sandwich the cookie between two cards, grease on the back side of the bullet at such short ranges seems to make no difference.

Man! Out here in California, the temps can reach over 100. My cap and ball pistols are sweating Bore Butter all over the place and I have to go to a mix that includes Bees Wax to keep it from dripping out the bottom of my holsters. Won't the grease inside the case migrate to the powder and cause issues?

Bruce

[Noz]

A problem that I ran into using a lubed wad inside a case was firing a smokeless bullet with real black in a 41 mag rifle. The wad carried enough lube to keep the fouling from building up and causing accuracy problems, BUT in some cases the wad stuck to the base of the bullet and when it did, accuracy went away in a hurry.
If you must use a lube device of some sort (wad or cookie) inside the case then a thin card both over and under the lube would be advised.

[Fiddler Green]

If you must use a lube device of some sort (wad or cookie) inside the case then a thin card both over and under the lube would be advised.

Usually, a milk carton wad is recommended.

Bruce

[Springfield Slim]

I don't know why guys insist on boiling out the lube, it makes a heck of a mess on the pan. Just put some paper towel on a cookie sheet or piece of folded tin foil,  put the bullets on the paper towel and put it in the oven at 200 degrees. In 10 minutes the lube will have run off the bullets onto paper towel, dump the bullets in a container, toss the paper towel,  and you are done. And if you decide to go the recast the bullets route(my preference), just buy some pure lead off e-bay, it's there all the time, and soften up your mix. 1lb of pure for every 5 lbs of bullets should work fine. 

[Long Gulch]

The computer has been down for a week and I've not been able to post
I did get to shoot my first real bp match this past weekend. I used Diamondback from Powder Inc., and every thing went BOOM just fine. This may not be a good gauge of this particular powder since it is my first use of the real stuff, but everything went smoothly without any fouling that would stop a gun.

Using input in earlier posts, the loading went like this :
Using resized and primed brass the first stage of the Hornady Lock N Load belled the case mouth. The second stage dumped the powder from a Hornady BP powder measure, and stage three checked the load with a RCBS powder check. I then removed the charged case and added a "wad" punched with a .44 case from manila envelope that had been coated by dipping in melted paraffin. On top of this was added a paraffin/beeswax/mutton tallow lube by inverting the case on a sheet of the lube so that about 3/4 of the diameter case was filled. Return to stage four, add bullet, seat, compress about 1/8 inch  and crimp.
Complete conversiion to The Dark Side: Priceless

Does this sound similar to others folks loading experience using smoleless bullets?
This will have to be my procedure untill  I can afford one of Dick Dastardly's .44 Big Lube moulds.

BTW, Thanks to Springfield Slim  for giving a formula for softing hard cast bullets for BP casting.                                           

Thanks all, LG


P.S. Is there a 160- 165 .44 mould in the future?