Observations and Questions About the Conversion to Black Powder From Heathen Pdr

[Blackpowder Burn]

I have an couple of observations about the conversion from heathen powder to Holy black - and a question to pose to y'all that have more experience.

I've been shooting black powder at local matches for about 5 months now, and having a blast.  I've read a lot of posts on various forums about the difficult cleanup.  And I also read about the benefits of the BL boolits.  I therefore decided to use BL boolits when I started shooting black powder.  I initially started shooting it in a pair of USFA SAA's in 44 WCF.  Now these guns were pretty new, but had been shot for 3 or 4 months with heathen powder.  I cleaned them thoroughly before using black, but noticed I did have to give them a shot of moose milk about mid-way of the match to keep them running.  Over the course of a few months the need to do that has disappeared and they now run flawlessly through a match, and are very easy to clean.

Now forward to this spring.  I bought another pair of USFA's - rodeos in 45LC.  They never had any heathen powder, but went straight to Holy Black.  They have never shown the least tendency to foul, and in fact this weekend I shot them for a full weekend match without cleaning - and they ran just as smoothly at the end as at the beginning.  And I think I used a total of 4 patches to clean each gun.

My question is this - we all know of the Unholy gunk that forms when residue from black powder and heathen smokeless are mixed.  It appears to me that even the small amout of residue left after a good cleaning (after firing smokeless) is enough to cause some of this crud and result in binding (resulting in the need to give a spritz of moose milk on the front of the cylinder).  After several firing and cleaning cycles with black powder, this gradually goes away.  At least these are my thoughts after observing the performance on my two sets of revolvers. 

It would perhaps also go a long way to explain why so many folks have problems fouling and binding their guns, particularly since many use both heathen and black powders at some point.  Thus are changing back and forth and are thus always dealing with the crud formation from the reaction of black and smokeless.

These are just my musings - am I way off base?

[Fairshake]

I think that the more BP that is fired from a gun that gun becomes seasoned just like a cast iron pot must be. With that being said I know that Long Hunter sets up his BP guns with more cylinder bbl gap than the ones that are to be used for that other stuff; can't remember what is called. The Ballistol does season the metal for BP. Don't you just gringe when you hear all the cr--p about how bad it is to shoot and clean BP. I asked one of our shooters if he had fired any BP from his Schofields and he said "Oh no I would never put that stuff in my guns. While waiting for my 1887 to be finished by Coyote Cap, Kitty his daughter said that if I didn't get my gun by the end of the week she would send me hers to use. I told her thanks and I was ready to shoot some Frontier Cartridge with the 1887. She said ; What you shoot FC oh I can't have that in my gun. I spent the next 30 minutes  telling her about the BP cleaning.

[Dick Dastardly]

The two main issues that concern me about heathen fad smokeyless ammo residue are the crayon lube and copper fouling.  Once a gun is clean, and I mean clean, it will usually shoot bp ammo with no worries.  Fouling will be reduced if Big Lube™ bullets with a good bp lube are used.  Note, I said reduced, not eliminated.  The fouling stays soft and easy to clean up.  It doesn't effect accuracy or function.

On the other hand, once crud from the "other" ammo is deposited in the barrel, it's a whole different question.  Black powder leaves a natural soot residue.  When mixed at the flame temperatures generated with the wrong residue the resulting fouling is NOT the same as the soft fouling mentioned in the previous paragraph.

I've found that complete and thorough cleaning is easily accomplished after shooting proper black powder ammo.  Much easier than cleaning up after shooting smokeyless stuff.

Sub/replica powders are a whole other discussion.

DD-DLoS

[August]

I believe the whole secret is in that little space between the cylinder bushing and the frame at the front.  If that area is clear of petroleum lubricants and well-coated with synthetic grease (l like Mobil 1 bearing grease), then the gunz will run smoothly (assuming big lube boolits and etc.).  Did you gradually eliminate all the petroleum stuff from the gunz as you used them with BP??  That would be my guess about the transition.

However, I do agree that black powder gunz get much easier to clean after a few matches than they are initially.  That's been my experience, anywho.

[Blackpowder Burn]

To answer all y'alls comments, etc.
1.  All 4 guns were purchased from Long Hunter
2.  All are shot with BL boolits as cast and lubed by Springfield Slim
2. When I changed to Holy Black, I thoroughly cleaned the first pair of heathen residue.  First I used smokeless powder solvent,
    and then cleaned again with moose milk.
3.  I lubed the bushings and base pins with straight ballistol.
4.  The second pair of pistols were cleaned with Ballistol and fired only with black from the first round.

The first pair now run as freely as the second pair, it just took several good firing/cleaning cycles to get there.  It's not of major importance, but I just found the comparison of the two pairs of guns interesting. 

And Dick, you are absolutely correct.  Cleaning these BP guns is MUCH easier than cleaning smokeless guns.  When I show members of my club the guns after firing a match, they are amazed.  And when a show them a shiny spotless bore after a couple of patches and a bore snake they are speechless.  It's really fun to teach something to people that have shot BP for years and don't think this is possible.  I owe my success with this endeavor to the kind folks of this forum that educated me before I undertook it.

I am continuously more impressed with the BL boolits.  I fired a full days match with my USFA Lightning and at the end, the bore had very little fouling.  I put a bore light in it and saw large areas of shiny metal, and the rest had a thin layer of soot on it and a few larger chunks scattered around.  I then let it sit overnight and shot it for the second day of the match.  After about 7 total stages there was sufficient crud in the chamber that the gun didn't want to go fully into battery and I got light primer strikes.  One pass with a swab through the chamber and the problem was resolved.  Not bad for a rifle that people tell you won't run reliably to begin with, and don't even think about shooting black in it! 

Now I've just got to finish working up my load for my new Marlin 38-55.  So many guns......so little time.

[Smokin Gun]

Much easier than cleaning up after shooting smokeyless stuff.

I completely agree with that info...and a short footnote to add, I've not suffered from cleaning a leaded barrel while shootin' conical or roundball boolits.
I'm still usin' my Dang I'm Broke Lube Pills recipe... works on conicals too.

[Angel_Eyes]

Yeah, but when are you gonna stop using them new-fangled cissy brass things???

Get back to warthog C&B

AE

Damn this British Govvermint

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I just want to comment on this business of opening up the cylinder gap. In This Cowboy's Humble Opinion, it is usually not necessary. If a gap is so small, say .002 or so, that fouling on the cylinder face begins rubbing on the butt end of the barrel, maybe a little bit more clearance is needed. But ALL the guns that I shoot Black Powder in, Real Black Powder, have their original factory gaps, none have been altered. The gaps on my Colts, clones, and Rugers all run in the vicinty of .005-.008. They all run just fine with Black Powder and Big Lube bullets, no larger barrel gaps are needed.

Now to add to this information, I have a Ruger Blackhawk convertable with a 45 Colt and 45 ACP cylinder that I bought brand spanky new way back around 1975 or so. That gun has never had anything but Smokeless run through it. I thought it would be fun to bring it to a match and shoot Black Powder through it, so I took it completely apart, and cleaned all the parts down to bare metal using laquer thinner, because that is what I had on hand. I have done this before, using either paint thinner or laquer thinner, it does not matter. You don't have to clean it with gun cleaner, or Smokeless solvent, because you are just trying to remove all chemicals from the metal and get everything down to bare metal. Any good organic solvent will work. After throroughly cleaning the entire gun, inside and out with laquer thinner, I lubed it up, inside and out with a light coating of Ballistol, and put it back together again. When I was reassembling it, I took a moment to measure the barrel cylinder gap, and was a little bit perturbed to find that the gap was only .003. That's right, .003. Pretty tight, and I thought I might get some binding and need to clean off the cylinder face a bit. Never happened. I shot the Ruger for six stages with my usual 45 Colt loads full of FFg and topped of with a PRS 250 grain Big Lube bullet. The gun shot fine, never needed any wiping down or anything, even with that tight gap.

And when I got it home, it was just as easy to clean as any of my other revolvers that I usually shoot BP in. Cleaned right up with my usual Murphy's Mix solution. No extra work needed at all.

So much for seasoning. All I needed to do was completely degrease the gun, and lube it up with Ballistol. Worked just fine, and cleaned up real easy. Perhaps the secret was in the total degreasing job, which I have done to other Smokeless guns before. But after a thorugh degreasing, and a light coating of Ballistol, my guns clean up just fine. Did the same thing to one of my Colts a few years ago. It has never seen any more Smokeless ammo since.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Driftwood,

Thanks for the info.  I think your're correct - it's the total degreasing and cleanup before the conversion to black powder that is important.  I probably would not have made the connection had I not seen the side-by-side comparison with these two pairs of basically identical revolvers.  It certainly makes for interesting conjecture, anyway.

I hadn't thought about the laquer/paint thinner - I'll have to remember that in the future.  That is, if I ever shoot any more heathen powder.

[Montana Slim]

I use BP lube on the few smokeless rounds through my cowboy guns. I have no problem shooting BP after smokeless and that is without cleaning the smokeless junk out of the gun. It don't work the other way, though 

Of couse shooting only BP is better because it makes you look sooo much better doing it 

Regards,
Slim

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Same as Montana Slim.  SPG on my smokeless rounds too.  No problems!