Help with Civil War gun questions.

[Tangle Eye]

Headed to the range today with the latest loads for my new War Between The States era rifles and ended up with a couple of questions for you more experienced with these guns.  Here goes:

1 - I'm using what I think is a standard load in the Enfield - .577 Minie Ball and 60 grains FFFg Swiss.  It shoots good, goes boom every time, etc. but -- at 100 yards it shoots about 3 feet high with the sight in the absolute lowest position (yes - I said 3 FEET).  To say the least that makes hitting the bull a bit difficult.  I wonder what to do.  My first thought is reduce the powder charge a bunch but I''m not sure how low I can go and still be safe, expand the minie skirt, etc.  SO - any help in lowering the point of impact would be much appreciated.

2 - 1859 Sharps Carbine -- pretty much the same problem as the Enfield except it shoots 18 inches high at 100 yards.  I'm using 55 grains of FFFg and the Pedersoli mould Sharps bullet with this one. This bullet is supposed to be matched with this rifle.

3 - Paper cartridge for the Sharps.  I can make 'em and they work. But -- I'm spending lots of time and trial and error getting the length just right to have the block cut off the tail of the cartridge just so when it's jammed against the bullet.  I'm assuming the paper cartridge needs to be jammed up tight behind the bullet - Right?  I'm using a powder cartridge separate from the bullet as recommended in the kit I bought from Dixie Gun Works for making the paper cartriidge.

Any help, advice, or experience with any of this would be greatly appreciated.

[Sergeant Smokepole]

The charge was 60 grains of Fg. The sight being off is because the sights were battle sights, calibrated for a hit on a man sized target with a center aim (belt) out to 300 yards.


Again, the carbine was battle sighted for 200 yards as they were meant for mounted troops which engaged at closer distances.


The paper cartridge was designed to be an integral part of the cartridge, meaning that the projectile and propellent tube were mechanically joined together. Most Sharps paper cartridges were attached by a piece of string around a rebated bullet base. The bullet's base was rebated (smaller diameter) and has a slight groove.


I hope these answers help.

[Qball]

You meen that the charge was only 60gr?
That explane y i allmost broke my collar bone with my Zoave .58
i loaded 100gr to get low enaugh to hit the target at 100 meters
painful but effective

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pard,
What was said about the sights being set for combat ranges is correct.  You have two real choices if you are going to do much target shooting at 100 yds.:  either put on a higher front sight (if you can remove the original blade...some are pinned to the base...some are not), or paste a target up that has an aiming point 12-18 inches BELOW the point of impact!

David F. Butler, in his book, "U.S. Firearms 1776-1875", indicates the Sharps Carbine cartridge contained 50 grains of FFg. (?) powder, while the rifle held 60 grains. These were the paper cartridges with the bullet included.  Priming was either by Lawrence pellet primed system or a standard "tophat" percussion cap.

The muzzleloader Enfield was 60 gr of Fg, as stated by Sgt. Smokepole.

Hope this helps some.

Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those in harm's way in the defense of Freedom! God Bless America!

Your obdt servant,
Trailrider

[Tangle Eye]

Howdy - well, the solution to the carbine was just load adjustment and using the bullet mould that Uberti makes or the thing.  The solution for the Enfield is kinda funny,  I was stuffing the skirt full of bullet lube - you know - the more the better!  When I used a bullet with the skirt empty it came in pretty close to point of aim at 100 yards.  No tack driver but good enough for some smoke 1860's fun!

[Hunter]

Your Enfield rifle should have a setting for 100 yards. If your rifle is shooting three feet high at 100 yards something is wrong. I've seen barrels that had to be adjusted because of this and all that means is they (the factory) bend the barrel in the appropriate direction to correct the problem. Obviously this has its limitations, but with adjusting/bending the barrel slightly and adding a taller front sight (if necessary), your point of impact should be where it's supposed to be. Increasing, or decreasing your powder charge won't correct this.
In addition, check to make sure the wood in the barrel channel is not causing any upward pressure on the barrel itself.


Respectfully,


Wesley J. Bodine
Member # 439
NRA Life Member I. D. # 001834062

[Frenchie]

Smokepole has it right, rifle and rifled muskets were sighted to shoot high because the muzzle velocity is lower than with a smooth bore musket. They reach out with more accuracy than a smooth bore, but the trajectory is a rainbow.


Lost In Translation,  How to convert a Repro Rifle Musket A True Minié System Rifle Musket.

People who shoot any recent large bore mass produced rifle or rifled musket reproductions have a problem: the arm's performance is erratic; some people get decent performance from their reproductions whereas others get pie plate sized groups at 25 yard/meters.

You ask yourself, why the wide variety of groups? There is a reason for this.  Large bore rifle muskets in the 1850's and 1860's were set up according to systems, i.e., American, Burton, Minié, Wilkinson, Lorenz, Delvigne, etc. and these accuracy systems insured that rifled muzzle-loading muskets delivered accurate and effective fire out to 300 to 600 yards/meters.  Modern manufacturers, to save time and money, have taken shortcuts in production which negate the effectiveness of many current reproductions, changing or eliminating many of the features that made these system arms so accurate.

You can fix the faults or have a qualified gunsmith correct these changes/defects and have an accurate large bore rifle.  The majority of all current reproduction rifle muskets can give you a 1" to 4" group at 100 yards/meters if the following tips are followed. You might think 4" at 100 yards is not great but the accuracy standard for many modern assault rifles is worse, such as for the Russian AKM which does good to give 4"-6" at 100 meters.

Properly size your bullets, and keep proper quality control. Minié, Williams or Wilkinson balls should not be more than 0.002 inch under size for best results.  Weight of the bullets must be consistent and the lead soft.

Have the right countersink on your ram rod head. All these rifles had countersinks in their ram rod heads that matched the nose of the service bullet. Tests that I did with Gardner and Improved Picket compression bullets showed ramming the bullet and one seating tap with a ram rod with an ill-fitting head decreased the bullet length by 10% and altered the balance.  It's a simple matter to get the correct countersink on the ram rod though; all you need is a drill, 5mm or 7/32" HSS drill bit, 12.5mm or 1/2" Christmas tree rotary file, epoxy, a cast bullet, Elmer's glue (white or clear blue school glue), and a half hour's time. First apply a thin coat of Elmer's glue to the nose of the bullet that you will use to shape the correct countersink and let the glue sit 30 minutes to dry. Second you use a drill, drill press, or a metal lathe and a 7/32" HSS drill bit to drill a guide hole.  You will need to go 2/3rds of the way down the tulip head, or on an Enfield drill to the tool slot in the head. Apply a small amount of oil or tapping fluid to the drill bit to assist in the drilling.

Using the rotary file in the drill you create an over-sized countersink in the head of the ram rod. You need to again use some oil or tapping fluid to assist in the cutting action, afterward degrease with alcohol or acetone.

Mix a small amount of metal filled quick setting epoxy or epoxy putty such as JB Weld and put it into the countersink, then gently press the head of the bullet into the countersink, wiping away any excess epoxy with a vinegar soaked paper towel. You can also use acetone, i.e., regular nail polish remover to remove the excess. 

After the epoxy or epoxy putty has set, gently tap the bullet and it will fall out of the ram rod (the dry glue acts as a release agent), and you have a perfect countersink that matches the bullet you are using. I often find that doing this halves the group size on repro rifles.

Use good lubricant. All the original lubricants are animal fat or soft grease. Use a proven soft lube like MCM, SPG, or if mixing a beeswax lube use animal fat like pig's lard or beef tallow if possible as it has a higher melting and vaporization point than vegetable oils like Crisco. This keeps the lube "wetter" and the fouling softer and more is removed by the bullet when shooting.

Use the right load for your bullet. Use the system set up by the late Tony Bagdon to develop a load for your rifle methodically (see http://www.n-ssa.org/NATIONAL/CONTRIB/bagdon.html .) Bullet skirt thickness varies between Minié designs. I recently sectioned a Lyman 575213 NS bullet and a Lee 575-500M and found that even though the bullets weighed and looked the same the cavity shapes and skirt thickness varied radically. A load that works for one may not work in the other.

Make sure your rifle is properly bedded. You can take off the barrel bands and gently tighten the tang screw; if the point of impact raises several centimeters or a few inches it is not bedded correctly. David Minshall's website Research Press has reprint of W.S. Curtis "Managing The Enfield" at www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/musketry/enfieldmanagement.htm

The rifle musket can be very accurate at long ranges, and can be very versatile on game.  I know of one USIMLT member who took a 1500 pound bison at 50 yards with one shot with a M-1855 Harpers Ferry rifle with a 33" barrel using a Wilkinson Improved Picket Mk III bullet with a spine shot, and a 1400 lb. bison with a 54 caliber Wilkinson Improved Picket Mk III bullet from a Dixie Lorenz Jaeger.  I also know of an N-SSA member using a M-1863 Zouave rifle that has taken several fairly large whitetail bucks at over 200 yards using a 58 caliber CSA Gardner bullet.  I have already posted some of the ballistic data and write ups on for the bullets mentioned above.

Plastic cartridges are also available for the 54 & 58 caliber bullets which greatly help your reloading speed.  I hope the information was helpful.

Best Regards:

Greg Edington

[Hunter]

The velocity of a smoothbore musket may or may not be higher than that of a rifled musket, the fact that one is rifled and the other is rifled has little to do with how fast the weapons launch projectiles, particularly considering the relative inefficiency of black powder as a propellant. In any event, the fact that smoothbore muskets use round balls and rifled muskets use conical projectiles, any velocity advantage a smoothbore "might" have would quickly be overshadowed by the superior ballistic properties of the conical bullet.

I have a Thompson Center New Englander that shot high from the factory and I returned it to them for repair. They bent the barrel downward slightly and returned the rifle with a target problem solved.

I'm glad your fix for the Enfield was so simple Tangle