colt walker question

[Flint]

Fox Creek, I recall 1860 Italian repros with stepped chambers, probably to emulate the original Colt chamber, some of my cylinders are made that way, and it is a pain to clean them, as you need two sizes of cleaning jag to get them swabbed out.   

The rear half of the chamber is the same diameter as a Navy chamber. They don't hold as much powder as the newer 1860 cylinders will.

The older Uberti cylinders would not hold much more than 25 grains of powder and the newer ones will hold more than 30 gr.

[Fox Creek Kid]

You're dead on as usual, Flint.     A little secret: the easiest way to clean the chambers is with a nylon test tube brush which has curved bristles on the end. A couple of swishes under soap & water & presto, clean!!

[Jrw8214]

Are you guys serious about using 777 in a Cap n Ball is a bad idea? Because ive been wanting to try it in my Cimarron 1860 Army. Ive been wanting to try something different because i feel that what ive been using(American Pioneer) is on the weak side.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Are you guys serious about using 777 in a Cap n Ball is a bad idea? Because ive been wanting to try it in my Cimarron 1860 Army. Ive been wanting to try something different because i feel that what ive been using(American Pioneer) is on the weak side.

I never said Triple 7 was "bad". It's just that it has more pressure than REAL BP. If you're going to use it I would use FFg & not FFFg and back off the charge a little. Then again, shooting faux BP in these guns is like taking your sister to the prom IMO. 

[Hoof Hearted]

Are you guys serious about using 777 in a Cap n Ball is a bad idea? Because ive been wanting to try it in my Cimarron 1860 Army. Ive been wanting to try something different because i feel that what ive been using(American Pioneer) is on the weak side.

777 is NOT a direct replacement for Black Powder.
It is NOT supposed to be compressed.
Even as much of 1/10th of an inch compression can cause major pressure spikes.

Other than that it's fine stuff

[Dalton Masterson]

I have to disagree with full charges not being harmful in a modern replica. I used to shoot 60gr loads often, when I first got it and before CAS. My barrel wedge is smashed, my barrel slot for the wedge is out of shape, etc. Take it easy with the full loads pards. Mine is an Uberti, btw.

777 is about 15% hotter than real black from what I understand. Dont quote me tho, go their website.
DM

[Flint]

Hoof Hearted, you asked about the forces on the cylinder arbor.

Although the recoil of the cylinder directly impacts the face of the breech ring rearward, the bullet's impact and deforming forces at the forcing cone, and the propellant gasses pushing the bullet through the rifling is trying to blow the barrel off the frame.  When a wedge gets too loose, or falls out, this indeed happens, and I have had it happen with an original 1860. The wedge pulls directly forward as if to pull the arbor out of the frame, stopped only by the bite of the threads in the frame.

This is why the brass framed guns loosen up faster than the steel, and is a good argument against a brass framed 44, or conversion.   Conversions are driving a harder, heavier bullet at even greater velocity into the forcing cone.

Actually, the threads on an Uberti (and Pietta?) Army/Navy arbor are smaller (5/16 or 8mm) than those of the original Colt (3/8).
Though the Walker and Dragoon arbor is larger and has larger threads, The forces are greater due to the heavier powder charge, and Walker wedges do get crushed, and the arbor and barrel slots get deformed with a diet of maximum charges.

The topstrap revolver puts these forces on the barrel trhreads, which are much larger in diameter and more than twice as long.

[Dalton Masterson]

Flint, now that you mentioned that, I did rip the arbor out of a brass framed .44. It did just what you said, and took all the threads out of the frame.
DM

[Jrw8214]

I never said Triple 7 was "bad". It's just that it has more pressure than REAL BP. If you're going to use it I would use FFg & not FFFg and back off the charge a little. Then again, shooting faux BP in these guns is like taking your sister to the prom IMO. 

I use 30 grains in my loads. What would you guys recommend powder-wise? I have heard mixed things about Pyrodex, and ive heard others agree on my thoughts of APP being on the weak side.

[Dalton Masterson]

Use the real thing! Nothing better than what was originally planned for that big critter. Give it a 45-50 gr load, and you wont know the difference NOT using a full 60gr load. And it will be better on your gun.

APP does have less energy than the others, but it is a nice powder. Not real powerful.
I dont care for Pyrodex in anything but my shotgun shells, but thats just me. When I did use it, it seemed to rust up my irons Really quick. (that was back in the preCAS days)
Goex, Kik, etc, Real black, all works good, and with good power. Hard to do much wrong with it, if you have compression.

DM

[Hoof Hearted]

Hoof Hearted, you asked about the forces on the cylinder arbor.

Although the recoil of the cylinder directly impacts the face of the breech ring rearward, the bullet's impact and deforming forces at the forcing cone, and the propellant gasses pushing the bullet through the rifling is trying to blow the barrel off the frame.  When a wedge gets too loose, or falls out, this indeed happens, and I have had it happen with an original 1860. The wedge pulls directly forward as if to pull the arbor out of the frame, stopped only by the bite of the threads in the frame.

This is why the brass framed guns loosen up faster than the steel, and is a good argument against a brass framed 44, or conversion.   Conversions are driving a harder, heavier bullet at even greater velocity into the forcing cone.

Actually, the threads on an Uberti (and Pietta?) Army/Navy arbor are smaller (5/16 or 8mm) than those of the original Colt (3/8).
Though the Walker and Dragoon arbor is larger and has larger threads, The forces are greater due to the heavier powder charge, and Walker wedges do get crushed, and the arbor and barrel slots get deformed with a diet of maximum charges.

The topstrap revolver puts these forces on the barrel trhreads, which are much larger in diameter and more than twice as long.

Flint, Thanks!

I knew this but was kinda tired of putting myself out there as the ONLY head to cut off

The reason why I said, "Scientific test" was to try to negate the ............aahh yer going to blow the thing up, AAHHh

Let's try to remember the originator of the thread did not ask, "what kind of premature wear am I going to see", but rather, "can this be done".
I for one can fix a loose cap and ball pistol (in fact I have soldered hardened inserts into arbors and made new "better" wedges, set arbors back and these things were done "back in the day too"). I also like doing "strange" things like this and repo's are CHEAP!

Let's not make this, "you can't have a bb gun 'cause you'll shoot yer eye out"

There have been some really great things discussed in this topic and I think we all learned a bit, A BIG THANK YOU to all who chimed in!

[will52100]

Your rite, it can be done, I just hate the thought of negating reliability.  The only way to do it is to give it a try.  If as I said Uberti would make them from 4140 or 4150 and heat treat them rite they'd probably never wear out with black powder.  One posibility is to get a real color case harding job done on arbor and frame, that would undoughtly help eleminate some of the wear, though be ready to replace barrels and wedges regulary.