Barrel regulation

[Rusty Spurless]

Im not sure that is the best thing to call it....

Bout 2 years ago I bought a Uberti Leech- Rigdon. I only fired 20-30 shots with it, mostly plinking.

Well last weekend I spent a little more time with it & discovered that while it groups nicely at 25yds the shots print about 3" left of POA.

I am wondering if any of ya'll have any good ideas on how to regulate the barrel to get the shots to hit POA? I am wanting to use it for rabbit hunting this year (instead of my usual 1851).

This is the 1st time I have had this with one of my revolvers. In thinking about it I am considering peening the base of the cylinder pin to move it a smidge to the right.

Any ideas would be most appreciated.

[Pettifogger]

3" off at 25 yards with the crummy sights on an open top is pretty darn good.  You don't want to bend the base pin since that will cause the alignment pins on the bottom on the frame to be off and the barrel will be hard to get on and off.  If you are going to try that, you should leave the barrel on the gun with the wedge properly tightened and then give the barrel a little tap to the right.  I would just use a little Kentucky windage.  The only reasonably simple solution is to file the rear sight a little on the right side of the sight groove.  If this is a brass frame gun I wouldn't be smacking or bending anything as the base pin might just loosen in the brass frame.  If you are really worried about accuracy you might also consider dovetailing a rear sight into the back of the barrel.  Then the front and  rear sights will always be rigidly aligned with each other and once adjusted will never lose zero.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I usually have a small dovetail front sight installed.  My 1851 and pair of Richard Masons all needed higher front sights anyhoo.

[Rusty Spurless]

I had considered doing that very thing & if it was my 1851 that had the problem I likely would have already.

Only problem is with the Leech-Rigdon you have a round barrel to contend with & I dont trust myself enough & I dont have a  mill lying around to do it.

Here is how she is printing. Group shot duelist at 25yds.

[Alabama]

Pretty simple mill work for an equipt Gunsmith . ( dovetails )
Last one I had done was for a Starr Double action , round barrel obviously , $30 to cut the dovetail . No , I can't remember who it was either , somebody in Florida ?
I like the hammer filing idea though , that works well too , been there done that , cheap , easy , even I can do it 
That thing is shooting so good , a little " Alabama " windage should be all you need though , or the rear sight hammer work if your looking for headshots only on your bunnies . It would take only minimal amount of filing to get that hammer sight where you need it . Although I really like the rear sight idea too , those are very efficient and would look awsome on that gun . Or you could get real fancy and get a front and rear dovetailed in and you'd be very happy , forever with any load or bullet . Change hights on the front blades and windage on rear , very cool . Unelss your a tradtionist ? Then doing anything except a taller bead or filing the rear hammer are your only true options I see ?
Buy another barrel , SMITH it up to the max for bunny hunting, change out barrel when you want traditional shooting , problem solved .

Good luck and keep us posted , am sure you will anyway !

Alabama

[Gripmaker]

3" to the left from a Duelist stance is pretty derned good. Before doing any blacksmithing to your gun however, I would look alot closer at the shooter. It is just too easy for a right-handed shooter to pull to the left trying to compensate for natural rightward movement while operating trigger or for a lefty to naturally pull gun that direction.  Try it from a sandbag rest or clamp it in a vice to see if this is true. Better yet, just get a 31 or 36 cal. squirrel rifle for this chore.

[rifle]

Pretty simple to cut a dovetail with a mill?   I tell people a lot, "easier said than done". I cut dovetails on a mill for people with cap&ballers. Round barrel? Ever wonder how the smith lines up the barrel to cut the dovetail so the sight is straight up and down(not leaning) when you check the sight picture? How about this one? Bladed front dovetailed sight......cut the depth of the dovetail in the barrel so the sight blades are down where there is no space between them and the barrel but the bluing isn't scraped off when the sight is installed? Keep no more than .001 inch between the blades of the sight and the top of the barrel?  How about this one? Having the sights angled edges match the degrees of the dovetail cutter end mill so the sight actually fits well as it should? Keep the width of the slot in the barrel  to exactly within less than .0001 inch (ten thousandths) so the sight will be tight without the unsightly peened metal of the barrel along the sides of the dovetail sight?   Keep the sight on the bottom of the barrels slot so there is "no" space under the sight in the barrels dovetail? I guess I'm saying that for $30-$40 dollars the customer gets a good deal if the smith takes the time to actually do the job properly.   People without mills don't realize that they have worm gears in the head where the gears move the end mill cutter up and down and the gears have play between them in the up or down direction. If the smith doesn't contend with that the slot will be too deep or too shallow. Hmmmmmm.....lets see how do you deepen a dovetailed slot once it's been cut and keep the angled sides all the same surface? It isn't just a mattere of cranking the end mill down to make it deeper. The dovetail angled sides would end up with a step in them. Whoops! If the slot is cut a coupla .001's in. too deep for the bladed dovetail front sight would it be easy as pie to just fabricate a new sight from scratch and do it precise enough that it exactly fits the dovetail slot already in the barrel? When it was done the first time the slot was cut to size for the sight. Now a sight would have to be fabricated to exactly match the barrels slot. Easy? Do it within less than a thousandths inch and make sure any margin of error is on the big side since a tiny bit of small means a loose sight that can moves and needs the unsightly peens along the edge. Unprofessional looking.  Example...what does ya do if the octagon barrel is not trued up in the frame where the original sight is canted of to one side?  Do another sloppy canted sight? True the barrel? Remove metal to an exact amount so the barrel is tight and true so the top flat of the barrel is perpendiular 90 degrees to the center line plane of the gun? Take a .001 in. too much off the shoulder of the barrel and the barrel tightens up and turns too far so the sight cants to the left. What to do now? Go around a whole turn of the barrel? Wonder if the loading lever latch is too close to the loading lever now? The cylinder gap? Oh oh. Is it much too tight now? Does the barrels breech end need to be faced off concentric to the center line of the barrel? 
I guess I'm saying it's easier said than done to do the job properly and.....there is "no room" for anything less than a perfect job done perfectly "the first time". The gunsmith has to contend with the strain or stress that comes with the territory when working on others firearms.  A lot of people don't realize that. Almost like they seem to think gunsmiths use a magic wand or are magicians. People that have a hard time using a pair of pliars or are not mechanically inclined at all expect,and rightly so, a perfect job done for their hard earned money. There's no room for any mistakes or even a slight amount of sloppiness at all.

[Alabama]

Pretty simple mill work for an equipt Gunsmith . ( dovetails )

Guess I should have said " COMPETANT ' Gunsmith , not " Equipt " Gunsmith . 
I don't think people think you guys are magicians either , but they do expect you to do your JOB right . I also think they are worried about YOU scratching there gun as much as you are about scratching there guns too by the way . 
As far as millwork goes , that is easy mill work . Try milling turbine rotor blades like my lady does for a living , or bearing cups , flanges , etc .
Ha , she only gets $25 hourly on 12 hour shifts . Dovetails ? $30 to $50 seams pretty fair to me . You'll notice I did not say YOU were to instal the sight or anything for the $30 .
Locking the frame straight in the mill vise is the only way I have seen it done to get the sight straight . Takes good equiptment and a good millwright obviously . Your JOB once again or don't do the job , right . It aint magic , but it is an art for a very competant person with good tools .
$100 wouldn't make your job easier or the task at hand easier , but nobody is going to pay YOU $100 for a dovetail unless they are idiots .
That is exactly why I don't build grips for people anymore ,at leastnot paying people , everyobdy wants thier grip yesterday , and they do not really understand how hard it is for the $50 they would like to pay for them . When you tell them they will be between $200 and $500 depending on what they want and there gun is going to sit in my house for weeks till I get around to it in between the other 50 people that want $50 grips too , is exactly why money takes the fun out of it for a bussiness , for me . And of course there is the pressure of possible scratches to thier guns . Not worth it anymore 
Allot easier said than done , your right there , but it is your job . $100 won't make it sraighter , trust me . It aint magic , it is an art . All artists are underpaid right .

Alabama

[Alabama]

John Taylor here on the forum does dovetails for $15 each . 

Alabama

[Fox Creek Kid]

A cheaper & easier solution is to file a little to one side in the hammer groove sight notch.  I've done that on my '60 Army RM. It justs take a mouse (I'll refrain the from using the more common machinst's term  ) hair pass or two with a file and you're there.

Sight radius x distance to move group / range to target in inches = POI movement.

For example, if your gun has a sight radius of 8 (the distance between the back of the front sight blade and the rear sight notch), you're shooting at 900" (25 yards) and you need to raise the point of impact 2", the equation would be: 8 x 2 / 900 = .0177". Not much. something best measured with a caliper. Remember cut slowly and carefully. Round it down to .017". You can take more off. but putting it back on is a chore.

[rifle]

Fox Creek Kid, how are ya Pard?  You get too compillatedly complex fer me.   
I can understand doing the ,"file a little,shoot to check,file a little,shoot to check method". I don't have a calculaterfor that equation stuff and I fergetted everything I learned in college.   You have a good idea though. I have a Uberti 1860 Colt Army that always shot to the right. I've looked that gun over and have never found the reason why it shoots to the right. I did the "file the hammer slot over" to regulate it and for the last 20 some odd years it's been a good shooter. One of the best I have. I've reamed the chambers and recrowned and opened and lengthened the forcing cone and tightened the barrel on the arbor and other things do boot to make it the shooter it is but.....filing the rear sight got it on center so I'd agree with you about the suggestion.
Alabama, maybe you should have said"competent gunsmith".  Then I would feel even more comfortable relaying some insight. I've never really had a complaint about my work and more than once my work has been referred to as "magic". I'm not a millright or even a machinist. I just have built muzzleloader rifles and got into "fixin" cap&ballers since it seems I have an affinity for it.  Anyway you know what I was trying to relay. Things are always easier said than done. If a Pard remembers that they will be more careful when they start a job on their gun and maybe side step some of the pit falls that litter the way. Anwhooo...I know there are more difficult milling jobs than cutting dovetails in gun barrels. Why do you think you have to tell me that? I don't do that complicated stuff with my little cheapy mill. I know better than to over step my bounds and get into something I'm not capable to do. I know my limits. It sounds funny but I like to say,"I know what I don't know".   I know I just freshed up a dovetail in a Rodgers and Spencer Euroarms(nice well built gun) and made an oversize dovetail based sight from an old antique tractor bolt for a Pard. I got it pretty much perfect and the sight is real nice. The four tight spots are lapped from the barrel and that was done properly using a tight lead lap. That easy stuff is all easier said than done and I'll tell you Buddy....if you were being smart and inferring I'm incompetent if I relay a little insight that may help people.....you're just blowing smoke. Like I said...I haven't ever had a complaint about my work. I don't scratch guns either. 
Anywhoooo....more on the topic.....a dovetailed sight or filing a rear sight may be the answer to the original inquiry.
Adding to that I'd recommend the Pard with the "shoots left" gun take a real close look at the muzzle crown of his gun to see if it's concentric with the bore. It can be seen if the crown is machined crooked.
There's another anomaly that should be looked at too. The rifling depth consistancy in these Italian guns can have the rifling deeper on one side of the barrel than the other and that causes the guns too shoot off center. That rifling depth should be checked. If that is not right then all the suggestions for moving the point of impact of the gun apply. There's even a cure that gets overlooked. The crown of the gun can be set off concentric to make a compensation for the other defect(barrel rifling deeper on one side than the other) so two wrongs can make a right.  The off set crown can compensate for the rifling deeper on one side than the other to a certain degree and if done right totally nullify the rifling defect. That means the gun may be able to have the rear sight in the center and even the front sight in the center. That would mean the gun would be a better "point shooter" as any revolver that shoots center is.  Off setting the crown may be better for a Pard tight in the money dept. where buying a new barrel isn't an option. Price of barrels has gone up too. Well.....I would hope something I type may help a fellow "cap&baller' somewhere. That's why I take the time. I like to think something I type may help a fellow cap&ball shooter afficionado like me,Rifle, and Hat Creek Kid. ha ha ha

[Alabama]

No Rifle ,
I wasn't inferring you were competant , or incompetant . I was inferring I should have said easy for a Competant Gunsmith .
I would never infer your that , or otherwise  . How would I know if your good or not ? Matter of fact I wasn't speaking to you to start with , I was helping a pardner with ideas is all . May want to take the PEE out from under your mattress now though .
Have a great day .

Alabama

[Fox Creek Kid]

Alabama, I will vouch for the work of "Rifle". As a matter of fact, there is NO man in the country I would say knows more about cap 'n ball revolvers than he. His work is impeccable. Many people claim that they can time a Colt style revolver but few really can. I know of only two in my state, and neither likes to work on percussion revolvers as they are a little different. I tell you what I'll do. You send "Rifle" a cap 'n ball revolver for a "tune up" and if you don't like the results I'll foot your bill. Word. However, if you don't like his work I reserve the right to send the tuned revolver to a third party for an independent opinion. Deal?

[rifle]

Alabama, I misunderstood and thus.....I sincerely apologize to you for that.  Fair nuff?  I'll go check the mattress. When you can't see a person talk it can be confusing. Know what I mean? Sorry Bud.
Hat Creek Kid... yer butterin me up Buddy. I'm getting wary. ha ha ha 

[Alabama]

Well Rifle ,
I sure hope Rusty Spurless gets enough ideas to actually do some work on his gun , or have someone else do it if he's not comfortable with the job .
That is what his post was all about anyway , ideas 
I do know it wasn't about how hard it is to be a Millwright , or my Lady being one , or what she can do, what you can do , my matrress rant , or any of the aforementioned 
You right , not seeing someone speak can be confusing , words are like that written .
For that I do apologize too . I think we both may have felt attacked even
Not my intention for sure .

Alabama

[Rusty Spurless]

I certainly know what I want to do now & iffin ole Rifle is game I would be happy to send it to him.

Whaddaya say Rifle? I am needing a dovetail milled into the barrel & a new brass front sight. Also while yer at it iffin you look at the picture you will see a gap betwix the frame & grip. I havent looked real close at it but think a few licks with a file will get it right.

The action kinda amazed me outta the box so that dont need work. Very smooth & not even a hint of drag on the cylinder yet. Trigger pull is very crisp & clean at about 2lbs. Check it out & iffin you think you can make it better then that'll be fine too.

PM me with the particulars if you can get to it.

[Paladin UK]

Its good ta see all you boys playin nice agin 

Paladin ( ) UK