50-90 Sharps-- Need load info and tips

[buffalo joe]

 Howdy-- I need loading info and tips on 50-90 ( 2 1/2") Sharps.  I am a longtime reloader, rife shooter and muzzleloader branching off into BPCR shooting / hunting as my next vice.  Also new to this CAS City forum, but I am impressed with the breadth and quality of discussion I have scrolled through.  Kudos to all!!      I appreciate your indulgence as I try not to rehash some of the same great questions asked by Eric F. and Haggis over the past 6 months.  PS-- I would appreciate any updates since your initial questions as to results obtained and lessons learned.   
  I intend to start (and continue) with the traditional  "holy smoke" as my primary propellant, but also want to experiment with substitutes and smokeless, possibly even duplex loads.  Dont ask me why-- perhaps it is the pure fun in the quest to know the full capabilities of this rifle and to provide more convenience on some long hunts.  Also dont ask why a 50-90 since, yup, I already know it kicks like the south end of a north facing mule.  I got it for its historical significance and I do plan to hunt big tough critters with it.   Perhaps I will go with a more versitile and easier 45-70 for my next one!   
  Meanwhile, I want to wring all the accuracy I can from it and I would appreciate any initial tips, info, contacts or site links for anyone who has credible experience with loading and shooting this cartridge.     
  I have heard of folks having a hard time working up accurate loads for this cartridge, regardless of rifle brand.  I hear that bigger/longer bullets seem to stabilize better, meaning more cost and thump at both ends.   I am  somewhat confused by comments that the twist is too tight to accurately stabilize in my C.Sharps (30" Badger 1:26 twist barrel) unless I use a horrific heavy bullet.   I may be making an error in applying my smokeless centerfire principles and logic to a BPCR situation, but it usually seems that over-stabilized is better than under-stabilized so long as diameter of bullet, hardness, obturation, velocity and pressure etc are ok so you get good engraving, no gas bypass and are not stripping the bullet to deform it and leave lead in the bore.   
  I am looking for load data and sources as I have had a hard time finding much written for this cartridge (maybe there is a reason most stick to .45 and under!).  I planned to try a variety of powders and bullet weights, configurations, diameters, sized & unsized, hardness (starting 30:1), both PP & Lubed, wads & cards, crimps, etc.  Perhaps I will even eventually experiment with gas checks or jacketed bullets on smokeless loads.  I at least want to hear info on such things.  Lots of variables to experiment with, but I would like to learn from the mistakes and triumphs of others!   I need some good sources of bullets and moulds, as I dont see a wide variety of these in the .512 range like you see in the other smaller calibers.    I am also interested in if anyone has reliably / safely used fillers & wads or deep seated bullets to reduce powder capacity, though I hear there are concerns and drawbacks to both these ideas.
  Well, 'nuff said and asked of you for now.  I will take any good tips and references.  I appreciate your help and support.   

-Buffalo Joe

[French Jack]

For a selection of different bullet styles, probably the best place to try is: NEI Handtools.  You can Google them.  Their moulds are both affordable and excellent.  A plus to that is that you can get two different styles cut on the same set of blocks.  This gives you a choice of bullets without having to purchase two sets of moulds.

As to rate of twist, as I understand it, the theory behind the possible over stabilization is not the same that would occur with jacketed bullets.  The excess twist comes into play when there are voids or bullets with other imperfections that would affect the balance of the bullet.  Spinning it faster than need be may promote bullet yaw.  That's what I was taught years ago.  I have not had it happen, perhaps it is an old wive's tale.

In that case, and any other large case, I would stay away from fillers or wads to take up space.  Too much of a risk having a chamber or barrel ringed.  Somehow in that case which resembles a fuel tanker, I would only load a good BP loading.  Fouling will be proportionately less than a smaller bore, so that is a plus.  ( More surface area in the bore).

Given a good barrel, you should be able to work up an accurate loading.  You may remember the recoil for a while afterwards, though.   

[Haggis MacGurk]

Howdy Buffalo Joe,

     Another good place you can buy bullets for your .50 is Montanabulletworks.com
They have a good selection of styles, weights, and even alloys, I believe. This is the route I'm taking before spending money on a custom mold.  As I said in a previous post, recoil from this caliber, in my opinion, is nothing to be afraid of IF you have a sufficiently heavy rifle. Still haven't weighed my Rolling Block, but I think it's up around 15 lbs, and felt recoil can be compared to a 12 ga with light trap loads. Thats with a 500 gr bullet and 90gr of GOEX 2f. I have no intention of seriously competing in BPCR, so I don't know how much I would enjoy shooting a long string of rounds from the prone, but it's a lot of fun to shoot either way.

Why .50? Like you, historical signifigance was a big factor. My dad got me a copy of Billy Dixon's Biography a while back, so I'm a fan. That, coupled with the "bigger MUST be better" philosophy, and here I am. Incidentally, I also shoot an Uberti Highwall in 38-55.

Sorry if I'm rambling a bit. I'll share any info I obtain during my testing.

Haggis

[bear tooth billy]

I rebarreled a Pedersoli to 50/90 mostly for historical reasons, but it shoots great, here are some specifics. Badger extra heavy barrel from Buffalo arms, gun weighs over 16 lbs. I got a 50001 mold from Paul Jones, it casts a 655 grain bullet  in 20-1. starline brass, CCI benchrest large rifle primer, 95 grains swiss 1 1/2 powder .030'' wad, newsprint wad on top of that, SPG lube. I've only gotten sight settings to 300 yards but it shoots great out to there. Here in Iowa at our ncows buffalo shoots that big bullet REALLY knocks them over. Suggestion- put a pad on the gun and or on your shoulder, between the weight of the gun and the pad the recoil isn't bad





                         BTB

[buffalo joe]

  Thanks to all and please keep the 50-90 input coming.   I am reading & learning all I can from this and the Shiloh user forum.  Not many 50-90 shooters out there on the sites, and most info seems to be for the .45s or smaller.  It is amazing how little definitive data and loading tips are actually published on BPCR.  Though I am a muzzleloader shooter for years (that is pretty simple & straight forward), I am far more used to the precision centerfire rifle world and having a host of readily available published data, loading techniques, etc.  This BPCR stuff has some unique new challenges and lessons for me.   
  Talk to me about annealing the cases!   As I understand it, it helps with useful life and also with neck tension for consistent crimping.   OK, that makes sense to me from my smokeless loading experience and it is a plus on some cartridges loaded often due to work hardening, etc.   How best do you anneal the cases, as I have heard some conflicting and seemingly odd techniques???   
  Has anyone used copper bullets to get adequate length but at a lighter load?  I saw some copper and some soft bronze bullets custom made for Africa.   Also have heard of some folks using the pulled bullets out of the Browning .50 cal BMG.  Those are boattails. 
  What about wads? Again a lot of conflicting guidance as to need or best usage.   I plan to try fiber and also the thin card wads, with and without a lube cookie.  I know a guy who even uses a beveled case to cut out the styrofoam from the storebought  meat trays to make wads.    Has anyone used the poly wad bases?  Seems that if I want to reduce the powder charge while filling the case, these would help and would have the benefit of helping to better seal the bore and protect the base.  What is best and where can I get them to try in 50 cal ? 
  Seems that a hollow base bullet (not a full minnie, but a rounded shallow hollow) would help hold grease as well as better obturate in the bore.  Not sure whether this is better than a flat based bullet.   Thoughts?  Also, do you put a card wad under this or not, as I'd think you would want to keep the lubed base off of contact with the powder.   
  What about bullets made & intended for muzzleloaders?  I took my micrometer in to the local muzzleloader supply the other day to mike some samples.    I note that some brands are close to .511, but others are quite a bit smaller (like .506) and would need to be paper patched to get up to my .511 groove diameter.  The Hornady pre-lubed Great Plains bullets looked pretty good as is, but adding some SPG in the grooves on in the cupped base would probably be better.  Seems like the copper clad Powerbelt bullets with an integral poly base might work ok and expand well on medium game if they can be made to shoot ok.  Hmmm.   
   Again-- Why am I even messing with all that?  Dunno.  For now, I am just trying to explore the full capabilities of the rifle and potential bullet combinations.   I plan to eventually try it all so long as it is safe, but will mostly stick to the traditional tried and true lead and holy smoke-- especially while I am learning and need to get all the basics down first.  However, no use trying things that  have not worked elsewhere or just plain dont make sense.   There is apparantly plenty new to learn in BPCR that I had not suspected given my centerfire experience. 
   Last comment-- I researched the Ramshot / Western Blackhorn 209 and it sounds like a great new substitute powder for hunting loads.     Anyone have any experience with it??  What about in 50-90 Sharps.     
  I appreciate the help and any leads, links, references or referrals to others who can help me with my quest for 50-90 info and to improve my knowledge of BPCR loading.   
  Thanks, 
-Buffalo Joe

[Haggis MacGurk]

Wow, 50 BMG bullets? To me this would present some problems. First, the smallest bullet I have seen for that round is in the neighbourhood of 750 gr, with a 900 gr copper-jacketed bullet being the standard size for machine gun ammo.....ouch. Also, I think that caliber is closer to .501 in diameter. Fortunately, I am a Canadian Army Paratrooper, and have access to an actual 50 cal Ma Deuce in the room next to my office, so I'm gonna go check the bore size and get back to ya. As far as wads, etc, all I've used to this point is some milk carton wads to create separation between the bullet and powder, mainly to keep the lube and powder out of each other. This is developing into a good thread, lets keep the info flying!

[French Jack]

Annealing may be necessary with the Starline brass, as it usually is pretty hard.  You don't need to anneal more than the case neck.  There is no need to crimp ammo for a single shot firearm.  You just need enough tension to keep the bullet in the case while handling or transporting.  The simplest way to anneal is by placing the cases mouth up in a pan of water deep enough to come up to the 'shoulder area' on the case.  Heat the case mouth and neck with a propane torch, when the necks glow orange, tip them over into the water.  Remove and dry, you are ready to go.

I suspect that you will find that best accuracy will be realized with the use of BP loads.  The only wads you should need would likely be an overpowder wad, either vegetable fiber or LDPE, ( available from John Walters ), or cut your own from plastic milk jugs or if you prefer paper, from tablet backing.(paper tablets).

You may need to use a lube cookie under the bullet, and if so, use beeswax brood starter sheets to give you a layer of beeswax over the powder and leave off the card wad.  With a lube cookie, the card wad keeps the lube from melting in the bore, so it does not do you any good.  You just press the wax sheet down over the charged case, letting the case mouth cut a wad like a cookie cutter.  You seat it on the powder, and then place the lube cookie on it.  Seat the bullet on top, and you are good to go.  Brood starter sheets are available from apiary suppliers (beekeeper).  Get the ones without wire in them.  They are about 10"x17" and about 1/8" thick.

I would suggest you obtain some cast bullets in 20-1 from Buffalo Arms, get some of each weight, from say, 450 gr. to 650 gr. and try them out.  The one that works the best is usually easy to pick out.  Do this before you buy a mould to cast your own.  I once did it the hard way, and bought eight moulds before I got the best results.  Now, I buy some bullets first, shoot them with various loads, -- powders, wads, primers, bullets, etc., and then buy a mould for the bullet that works the best.

[Grogan]

Buffalo Joe,

For the little bit I know about the .50-2.5" Sharps (seeing as I recently acquired one of these myself, and have been checking out available sources of info), I'd suggest not thinking about it as a ".50-90", but rather as just a ".50 Sharps".

That's to say that it might be a .50-90, or a .50-100 or a .50-105, or anywhere in between, depending on what bullet and amount of powder and compression you decide upon using.

Also, I've been told that similar to good accuracy loads for the longer .45s, dropping down to a powder such as GOEX 1F Express may prove more benefitial than 2F.

Then, about using Grease Cookies...is there anything you've read that indicates that those are necessary for the .50 cal. when already using a "good" design Grease Groove bullet?

I'd say that adding a Grease Cookie where it's not really needed is going to eat up powder space and add extra steps to your loading.

I'll pass along something that the late Walt Melander-founder of NEI Handtools told me when I was having him make up a mould for the 405g .45-70 Trapdoor Bullet.  Walt confided in me that his experience (and the experience of fellow shooters, having him make moulds for them) was that the HB bullet design was LESS accurate than a similar Plain Base design in the same bullet profile.

His comment was that using a relatively soft alloy, Blackpowder would upset the bullet's base just fine and seal the bore.  "No Hollow Base needed or wanted!"

One other thought here, and that's on the use of JUST Beeswax wads as a lube...

I've seen it done, and I've also read other's questions and remarks about the practice.

From what many say, Beeswax alone is NOT really a BP "lube".  The lube is various oils used to keep the BP fouling soft and the Beeswax is added as a thickener to make those oils into a grease that can be retained in the bullet's grooves or as a cookie.

Just some things to think about here...

Good luck and let us know what works for you.

[Eric F]

Hi all I am glad I found this the whole Annealing thing makes sense to me I have split 5 of my brass already due to sizeing.  My best load so far is a paperpatched 515 gr flat nose.  I use 93gr goexx ffg with a .030 overpowder card a .060 disc of spg and another .030 carg over htat to keep the spg from saturating the paper.  Accuracey is 1.5 inches at 100 yards and 2.25 inches at 200 yards measures center to center.  I started with the same formula but was using a 3 grease groove it measures .512 and was a 530gr.  It gave me minute of basketball at 100 yards, didnt take me long to get rid of that particular bullet.  I am going to go home and Anneal my brass tomorrow.  Hope this helps.  Oh yeah does any one have a source for brass?  Everyone seems to be out these days.

[Haggis MacGurk]

I just got a bunch of 50 brass from Buffalo Arms.