38 and 357 brass belling

[Four Eyed Floyd]

Ok I am at wits end I have been trying to load some cast boolits but all I am doing is either shaving lead or sticking the boolit in the crimp die. I am using a Lee progressive 1000 to load with (black of course) and I have the powder die all the way down to bell the case. But even resized boolits are shaved. Anyone have any ideas that may help? 

[Jefro]

Give Lee a call, may be a bad part or something simple. I load .38 on Lee and can adjust the die from shaving lead to way to big. Good luck.

  Jefro

[Four Eyed Floyd]

I think I solved the mystery of the non belling shells. It may be that the cases were used many times...maybe too many times! Is it possible they were over used?

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I think I solved the mystery of the non belling shells. It may be that the cases were used many times...maybe too many times! Is it possible they were over used?

That sounds odd.  My buddy and I have 38 Spl and 45 ACP shells that have been reloaded 20-30 times.  Never trimmed, and loaded until they crack.

I'm no help as to why, however.  I don't know the lee press and the way they do things.  Sorry.  I'd call Lee.  They are pretty helpful, I'd bet.

[Four Eyed Floyd]

I had some once fired that loaded fine, but I will call Lee and see what they say.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Can you measure the length?


If they're too short, they won't bell properly.  (In other words, if they're set to expand the mouth for a proper specs length case, a too short case won't allow them to work.)

Conversely, if they're too long, you'll have way too much belling.  Again ... calling Lee is probably best.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I dunno about how the Lee is set up, but most expander plugs have two stages to them. In other words, there are two different diameters. You don't really start belling the brass until the first (narrower) diameter is run all the way into the case, and the taper to the second (wider) diameter actually expands the case mouth. Are you sure you are using the expander correctly?

Other than that, all you should have to do is bell the mouth enough so that a little teeny funnel is shaped at the case mouth. The funnel needs to be big enough that the edge of the bullet is guided into the case and not scraped. It's really pretty simple. You don't want the funnel too big, because all that stretching stresses the brass and leads to splits at the case mouth. But you have to expand it enough so that the mouth of the funnel is just a tiny bit larger in diameter than the base of the bullet.

Steel Horse Bailey is correct. Your brass needs to be reasonably close in length. Once the expander is set, brass that is shorter than your set up piece will have less of a bell, brass that is longer than your set up piece will have more of a bell. It's always a good idea to use more than one piece of brass for your setup. If you are using old brass, measure a bunch to get a sample of what lengths you are dealing with. Then use the longest, as well as the shortest piece to set up the die for both extremes.

[Ace Lungger]

I am not trying to be a smaty a$$, expand the neck of your case only as much as it takes to insert your bullet, don't bell it, a very slight flare is all you need, then on your seating die, I do a dry run, I want a nice tight crimp but just at the top of the neck, once you have that set, then you can start over running it, and setting you bullet depth! I don't do it that away, I take that case that you set your crimp, then run it threw the system untill you get to your seating, get your depth set right, and you are ready to go!
Also, about every 100 rounds of lead lubed bullets you run threw it you need to remove the seat crimp die and clean the inside of the die out, don't change any setting, I use laquer thinner because it will melt the lube fast and thenn swab it out good or use your air compressure to blow it dry, what ever works for you. because excess lube will build up in there and you will start seating your bullet to low. I have 2 Dillons and 1 Lee1000, I traded for the 1000 it was new, but i was the thrird owner! I can change my Dillon from 38's to 45LC in 15 mins, the Lee I got is 45LC and it took me a whole day to get it set, if I ever find someone local to sell it to, I will, the person I got it from, it cost him $50.00 to ship it to me.
One other thing, if you bell your neck on your cases you strech it and you make it weaker every time! I have been reloading for 30 years, I have some 45acp that I started out with, andif i have to throw one away it is because it is split in the middle of the case, and not the neck.

I hope in some way this has helped you! If not, let it go in one ear and out the other!!
ACE

[Four Eyed Floyd]

Thanks guys all of you have given me some things to check. I put a very mild crimp on the 38's and the 357's. Lunger you are right the set up for the Lee was a bear and took me a couple of weeks to get it right. You are also correct about cleaning the crimp die and BP lube is more trouble than say Alox. Took a 100 out to the range with Trail boss and they loaded pretty well. A little lead was scraped that would come off with a finger nail so maybe I have the crimp die not set absolutely correct. Lee give very little in the way of written documentation and what there is, is inadequate for the novice (me).  My learning curve was mostly trial and error (lots of those) but now I think I have most of it figured out, just this belling problem (may be the wrong word) for the cast bollits. Haven't had a chance to talk to Lee yet but I have a universal expander on order that should give me the extra bell I need. We'll see!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I'll mention something else.  That little sliver of lead MAY be from the bullet not entering the case mouth straight.  Along with the correct amount of belling/flaring, you need to set the bullets on the case mouth as straight as possible.  As the case enters the seater die and straightens the bullet as it pushes it into the case, a crooked bullet can slice off a sliver pretty easily.

It doesn't have to be PERFECT, just as close as possible.  You'll never notice it with jacketed or plated bullets.  It's also one of the reasons many bullet manufacturers put a bevel at the base of their bullets - both lead and jacketed.  It's easier to put a bevel-based bullet on top of a flared/belled case and get it to set there.

[Ace Lungger]

Floyd, Are you talking about the dia. being bigger where the bullet is in the case when you have a finished loaded round? If that is what you are tlking about, what is the dia. on the bullets you are buying or making, and if you are making you own, what are you sizing them at?? IF this is what you are talking about, if you don't have a good caliper, slug it, take one of your bullets get a good hold with a pair of pliers, don't smash it, but push it in the end of the barrel as far as you can and still be able to get it out, and then look at it, if it is laying the lands in the bullet and not marring the rest of the bullet it most likely is okay, but if it is marring anything other than the lands, you might be using to big of bullets! they say you can use up to 3 thoundsans bigger in a lead bullet but not smaller, I have a pair of old Hawes pistols, in 45LC I slugged it and for the gun to be super acurate, I need to size 454 insted of 452, and if I could find a 456 I would try that! And these guns are 1967's and before I put them toghter(I bought them in a box, what a mistake) they had never had real bullets shot threw them, they were prop guns for the train roberries at Silver Dollar City. If you do have a good pair of cailpers, take a piece of blue jean mat. push it in tightly down 2" take a nail with a head a little smaller than your lands, hold it, take a lit candle and fill it up with wax do not move the nail, if you have center the head of the nail, when the wax is good and cool, gently ease it out, and then use your cal. to tell you what size bullet to use or size to!
Hope this helps
ACE

[Four Eyed Floyd]

Ace, thanks for the information. I cast 357/158 grain and yes I do size them at 357, even did some at 356 and still had the shaving problem. Don't need to slug the barrel as I have had a number of squibs and did what you said after getting he slug out of the barrel. (I am doing much better now though ) I loaded a hundred or so with Trail boss and once fired shells with very little shaving. I think maybe I have the crimp set wrong  but have not had time to reset it.
One suggestion I have had was to measure the OAL of the shells (38 special) to see if they are stretched on my frequently used brass (that I use for BP). So I have some home work to do tomorrow to check out the suggestions I have received.

I'll keep ya posted guys! 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

Pard, you won't get much case stretching from BP because of the nature of BP and the PSI ratings.  You won't get much stretching from smokeyless cases, either - if they're loaded to typical Cowboy specs.  Now, load 'em up as full .357 or .44 rounds .... that's another kettle of fish.

I am not convinced either, that your crimp would cause any shaving.  As a rule, I like a good, firm crimp; whether I'm shooting BP OR smokeyless.  (For those who know me: yes ... I really DO fire other stuff besides BP Cowboy loads!  )

Keep yer powder dry!