It's not a Spencer, but it Shoots Spencer Ammo

Grapeshot · May 02, 2006, 05:41:33 PM

Last year I bought a Pedersoli Baby Rolling Block Carbine in .45 Colt. I wasn't happy with the way it shot nor the extractors inability to remove spent cases from the chamber, especially those that had a stiff charge of Black Powder/Pyrodex fird through them.

I sent the Carbine to Norman Johnson of High Plains Reboring, 243-14th Ave. NW, Turtle Lake, ND. He agreed to rebore the barrel to .50 caliber and chamber it in .56-.50.

Man, you should see the job he did on this carbine. The rifling is crisp and deep. The extractor pulls those .56-.50ases right out just as slick as a whistle. I can hardley wait to get it out to the range and try it out.

Grizzle Bear · May 03, 2006, 07:34:06 AM

Wow! I have one of the Baby Rollers, but mine is .22rf. One in .56-50 would really be a hoot! Let us all know how it shoots.

Grizzle Bear

Tuolumne Lawman · May 03, 2006, 11:56:26 AM

Seems to me Remington made a .50-45 CF carbine for the Navy in 1869. I believe it used .515 bullets, a short version of the 56-50 brass, 45 grains of musket powder, and was center fire. Hmmmmm. Sounds almost like a 56-50 centerfire to me<g>.

ABout 12-13 years ago, a guy did an article on the .50-45 Navy Carbine in the "The Shootin Iron" a now defunct online cowboy shooting magazine. I had one that was rebarreled with a .50 caliber, star bore, Hawken-type barrel, and chambered for the 50-45 carbine round, and eventually sold it to the guy who wrote that "Shootin Iron article. It was a great Plainsmen Match gun.

Grapeshot · May 04, 2006, 11:21:28 AM

The original split breach Remington was chambered for the .56/.50. The .50-45 was a longer case, not quite the length of the .50-70 and was used by the Navy and Marines as well as experimentally by the US Cavalry until the introduction of the .50-70.

That being said, the US Marines were using that combination, Reminton Rolling Block, .50-45, when they invaded Korea in 1871 to put a stop to the killing of shipwrecked seamen and landing parties looking for trading partners.

Oh Yeah, the Marines won and took over a Korean Fortress. Things got better after that.

TexasHighlander · May 16, 2006, 11:00:58 PM

The .50-45 was also chambered in the rolling block pistols issued to the Navy. I e-mailed SASS to see if this historical fact would qualify the .50-45 as a pistol catridge for main match stages, especially since they made an exception to allow the new .56-50. So far haven't gotten a response. I own an original rolling block garrison/artillery/naval musketoon, carbine length with a full stock, cleaning rod and sling swivels. It's currently .43 Reformado, but I would love to rebarrel it and use if for Plainsmen side matches.

Bill
TTH

Hell-Er High Water · May 16, 2006, 11:26:26 PM

T-H,

I use a 50-70 RRB "Project Rifle" for the Plainsman event. This rifle will also shoot my 56-50 ammo that I use in my Spencer.

This gun is a carbine, with a 20" barrel, and I call it a "Project Rifle" because I built on an old 43 Egyptian action that I relined and chambered to 50-70. It has wood and sights from several odd rifles but it shoots like a champ.

All the SASS regulations say about the Plainsan event is that you "Must use a SASS legal single-shot rifle firing a traditional blackpowder rifle or pistol cartridge ..............".

I dont see why the RRB, even in .43 Reformado, wouldn't be legal, provided you can get cases to load up some BP ammo for it.

Keep us advised.

HHW

Hell-Er High Water · May 16, 2006, 11:32:31 PM

T-H,

By the way, I forgot to mention, I load a round that duplicates (+/-) the original 50-45 carbine round of circa 1870.

Full power BP, 50-70 loads through a carbine get a bit brutal after several rounds. I have read that that is why the US Gov't went to the 50-45 loading. Something similar to they went to with the 45-70 for carbine loads.

HHW

TexasHighlander · May 16, 2006, 11:58:08 PM

I haven't really pushed the RRB musketoon project because apparently neither of my local SASS clubs currently have targets over 100 yards for rifle cartridge silhouette matches and only plan on shooting Plainsman if they host a major regional. I actually have 2 Reformado's, a full length infantry rifle with a mint bore and the musketoon. The load is a variation on a 45-70, straight tapered case using the regular .43 case head, .454 semi-spitzer bullet and 72 gr of powder in the factory load. And, because the cartidge used a semi-spitzer copper-clad bullet, the factory twist on the barrels is 20". They're both great shooters, but I don't do BPCS anymore and wish I could get some more use out of them.

Bill
TTH

Arizona Trooper · May 21, 2006, 07:53:29 PM

The 50-45 case is about 0.1" longer than a 56-50. I have a couple '68 Navy rolling block barrels in the shop, and chamber cast them to see. Also have an original round. It was used not only in carbines but '67 trapdoor cadet rifles. It's a great shooting round. I built '68 Trapdoor carbine using a Navy barrel and it's a very good shooter! (Looks neat too!)

A 56-50 Baby RB would be a hoot!

By the way. I'll be at a conference in Boston next week, on Tremont Street just down from the old Spencer works. I'll try to get some pictures and post them.

I'll post a shot of another non-Spencer in 56-56 after my daughter gets done on the PC

Arizona Trooper · May 21, 2006, 08:45:15 PM

Here is the non-Spencer 56-56. It's an Old Model Ballard rifle. Found it in a local shop with the forestock cut off. Made a new one using Spencer bands and a Sharps nose cap. They fit perfectly. I wouldn't be surprised if Dwight Chapin bought those parts from the same place Sharps and Spencer did during the war. Anyway, it's a fun shooter and a good complement to a Spencer rifle.

mtmarfield · May 25, 2006, 08:40:43 PM

Greetings!

That Ballard is great looking rifle... A Real Beauty!!! I once told Dad that the Ballard Rifle folks in Cody really should bring out the older Ballards, and chamber them in such {centerfire!} rounds as the .38XL, .44L & .44XL, 56-56, 56-50, etc. He suggested that I call them, and tell them! I think that they've got their hands full with the 'Match Shooters' to bother with such fringe cartridges that attract the likes of myself...
Well! Is your breech block still Rim, or Centerfire? How's the bore, and tell us about the load. If it's RimFire, Do you use the ".56 DGW Brass"?

Be Well!

M.T.Marfield
5-25-06

Grapeshot · June 05, 2006, 06:05:25 AM

Took the Carbine out to the range with a hundred rounds loaded with 2.2cc's of 777 and a 450 gr. .512 bullet.

Shoots about three feet high at 100 yards. Think I'm going to need a highet front sight. The sight at the end of this Rolling block is about .500 inches high as it is. Might need a gunsmith to custom make a new blade for this gun.

Any suggestions? Brownells and Midway don't carry any williams or marbles front sight higher than .50 inch.

geo · June 05, 2006, 04:00:50 PM

to grapeshot: post your needs at the delta-peach bottom fish and game. someone shooting black powder or black powder cartridge may be able to help you out. my replacement front sight is .52 from the top of the barrel to the top of the sight blade.
i am putting it this way because the fellow who worked my spencer is a dpbf&g member and is retired and i don't know if he's looking for extra work. i don't want to make commitments for him. trust you understand.

i read with interest about rebarreling the remington rolling block to 56-.50. i am looking for a uberti rolling block pistol in .45 long colt which was made several years ago but has been discontinued. i can have it rebarreled and chambered for the spencer round. no luck so far in turning one of these repros up.

good luck, geo.

minerotago · June 01, 2008, 05:55:10 AM

I am not 100% certain but do know that my Warners carbine made by Green Rifle company (brass frame) chambers my Spencer cartridges which I havehere so assume that the Warners Patent civil war carbine takes Spencer ammo.

Arizona Trooper · June 01, 2008, 04:13:50 PM

There were two models of Warners. The Greene made carbines are 56-50. The Warner made carbines originally took a shorter 50 cal. Warner cartridge. When Warner couldn't supply cartridges, the Ordnance Dept. decided to ream the chambers up to 56-56. Of course, that meant cramming a 52 cal. bullet down a 50 caliber barrel, which caused high pressures and a lot of problems. The worst was that case heads would split. Due to insufficient venting, the breeches would then blow open. There is a lot of good information in "Warner Civil War Cavalry Carbines", by J. Alan Hassell.

Since Minerotago resurrected this thread, I see that I didn't answer about the 56-56 Ballard. This one is probably unique, in that it has an antique center fire breech, which I suspect was done for one of the 1865/66 arms trials. All the breech parts are numbered 7, even the screws. I'm trying to find some of the reports to see if it might be mentioned. The bore is perfect, but way oversize, a true 54 cal. I started off shooting my regular 56-56 ammo and was lucky to hit the backstop at 50 yards! I wound up making a .555" bullet mold. Now it shoots as well as a Spencer!

The bullet weighs ~380 grains and I usually shoot 25 gr. FF with a card wad between the bullet and powder. Primers are large pistol magnums. This is because the nose the firing pin is long, skinny and of unknown heat treatment, so I don't want to batter it with hard primers.

I did once call Ballard about making parts for the CW models. They could do a land office business in 44/46 caliber center fire breechblocks. I even offered to send the set from my 44 carbine. They thanked me but said that they have more business than they can handle with all the various Marlin Ballards. I have been getting their fliers since then, which are nice.