Need a tip or two working up a shotgun load

[JL McGillicuddy]

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I am working up a BP/Pyrodex load (I know, but I have three pounds of Pyrodex RS I got for 7 bucks each left to use up) for my 12 gauge. 

I will be loading on a MEC Sizemaster, though I will likely be loading the powder using my Lyman 55 BP measure.  (Don't plan to run the Goex through the MEC, just the Pyro)

A call to Hodgdon netted me this suggestion:
1 1/8oz shot
claybusters red wad
50-65gr Pyrodex RS

I am not nuts about the idea of running plastic wads in my shotguns.  (Even less so after reading through the shotgun shell thread in the Dark Arts.)  My plan was to go with Circle Fly cards and wads instead.

I am loading into Winchester AA plastic hulls over Winchester primers. 

Here's my questions:
I was looking at dropping to 1oz of shot.  Stuff is pricey and I want to make it stretch if I can.  Will that hurt me for load density at around 60gr of 2f?  (I know patterning will help answer that question, just wanted to get an idea before I start stuffing that spherical gold into hulls.) 

Will the length attained with 60gr 2f assorted cards and wads (standard 12 gauge circle fly stuff) and 1oz of shot fill the shell (2 3/4 AA) enough to give me a good crimp? 

If not, what is the easiest and most reliable way to take up the extra space?

Also, I have heard of folks spiking their shot charges with glitter and the like to give a little more "show" to their shots.  Is there any reason to avoid doing this?  Anything I should be concerned about as far as this altering the load or "show fillers" to avoid?

Thanks for the help in advance gang!

Jack Lee

[Roosterman]

I use equal volume loads of shot/powder. either 1oz or 1 1/8oz. I use circle fly wads. I use a nitro card over the powder , then a 1/2" fiber wad, followed by the shot, then crimp. I can get mine to crimp with either load. If you have to adjust, go up in shot and or down in powder to help with your patterns.

[Sunwapta Haze]

I use corn meal to take up column space.  The total column height is easily manipulated by varying the amount of corn meal.  I use a MEC loader with adjustable charge bar.

My cowboy load using Win AA hulls and Circle Fly wads is:

• 3 cc of FFg powder
• 2.5 cc (or there abouts) of corn meal
• nitro card
• 1/2 inch wad
• 4 cc of #6 shot

This fills the hull nicely and finishes with a nice factory quality crimp (as long as you use once fired hulls - subsequent reloads of BP fired shotshells are never as nice). 

This load minimizes the amount of powder and shot (both of which are getting more expensive) and provides a nice tight pattern for my shotguns.  Never had a problem with knockdowns.  If I do my job I get a lot of lead onto the target because of the tight pattern.

[hellgate]

Here's my shotgun advice repeated from an earlier post:

About 10 years ago I shot in one of my favorite two day annual shoots and only had 4 misses two of which were shotgun fallers that failed to go down. At a second annual I could not bring any of the fallers down on the first stage with repeated hits and an 80 gr BP  1 1/8oz load. Fortunately, we were the first posse and I was one of the first to shoot it and the RO reset the fallers to a lighter setting but that was intimidating to me to not blow them over. Lots of smoke and noise but no "umph".  This was before much standardization of target size & distance; they were heavy and out there a ways.  So I went on a quest to improve the patterns in my cut down (cyl/cyl) Stevens 311. BlackJack Traven on the old CAS-L (earliest CAS Email bulletin board I know of) suggested STEEL SHOT CUPS after relating a similar experience. I tried them during extensive patterning tests and have not had problems with knockdowns since. Ballistics Products is my source for the wads.

First of all, the WAA12R (AA Red Wad or Claybusters generic equivalent CB 1138-12) is a very versitile wad for CHOKED guns. You can adapt any AA wad and several other types of plastic one piece wads to 2 or 3 heights by merely slicing out some or all of the "legs":
-Cut them out entirely (shortest wad column i.e. over powder seal & shot cup)
-Cutting the "legs" across the middle and rotating the wad 90 degrees and pressing the parts together for a medium high wad
-leave it intact for the tallest wad column.
There you go: a "3 sizes fits all" AA wad for light or heavy loads in the same or different hulls.

In order to get tighter patterns from my 311 and my TTN, I use 3 different Ballistic Products wads:
LBC-50 trimmed with tin snips to 30mm and slit twice full length. (I use a utility knife/box cutter)
CSD 118 also trimmed & slit twice
BP12 TUFF steel shot cup slit twice over any kind of salvaged over powder plastic gas seal wad

I tried not slitting the wads but they tumbled and threw elongated irregular patterns with about 1/3 of the shot load traveling backwards still inside the cup. I used 4 slits half length without improvement in the patterns. I used 75-80 grs FFg and 1 1/8oz shot as my load. My patterning board was an IPSC target or a large cardboard box with a sheet of freezer paper stapled to it at about 20 yards. Mark an aiming point on the paper. You can use 10 or 15 yards distance too. I think a full choke pattern is 10 inches in diameter at 10 yards but check a shotgun reloading manual for the various widths of patterns expected at various yardages for the equivalent choke. I cannot overestimate the importance of this simple patterning. You may find your gun shoots high, low, or God knows where til you see where the center of that pattern hits compared to where your aimed. I found that I was having some misses on stationary targets with an IGA Coachgun because the barrels were "walleyed" (left barrel hit low & left, right barrel hit high & right).

Results: all 3 above wads threw nice, even MODIFIED CHOKE patterns from my cylinder bores.

I now have essentially two loads. A light "gamer" load equivalent to a 20 ga of 55grs BP (or ANY sub other than 777) with 7/8oz of #8 or #9 shot using any wad column that allows a decent crimp. I usually try to use a plastic gas seal (PGS) OP wad and after that, anything goes: fiber, plastic, cards etc. The light load is for those ever increasing stationary  targets and swingers, or fallers so close that any reasonable hit will take them down. I load the light loads in green hulls. My heavier, steel shot cup load is put into red hulls. I can essentially change chokes by changing ammo.

Now, as DGB#29 (that's Dirty Gamey Bastard #29) I also will load custom loads for specific conditions. A big load of wide pattern (no shot cup at all but a PGS+Filler) with 80grs powder and 1 1/8os shot comes in handy. I'll use #9s for the pop up soda cans and briquets and #6s for the times when I think I can get more than one faller per shot when they're placed closer together. I've occasionally gotten 3 down with one shot. This usually happens with the full intent of the stage writer to let shooters "game it" by leaning over or doing whatever to see if they can get some doubles. It's a major fun factor.
So, you've got a hard little knockdown that throws up a can of pop: Left barrel gets a red round and the right gets the wide #9s. Just as if I had chokes, I shoot the tight load first to drop the faller and the open bore for the flyer. It's just like hunting, you have different loads for different critters close or far.

Keep in mind that BP doesn't throw shot as fast as smokeless powder. The short coach guns throw out a lot of unburned powder compared to a 30" gun. The slower to burn BP likes a long barrel to burn it all for maximum velocity. With smokeless, the powder is all burned in the first 18-20" of barrel. So, you are shooting softer loads to begin with. Just to get the equivalent of a standard 3 dram 1 1/8oz trap load you need to go to 82 grs of black. A lot of folks are shooting 55-60grs BP in a 12 ga. That's slow. In order to make up for the velocity lack you need a tight pattern. That's why I like the steel shot cups to put choke where it's needed to blow down the big steel.

p.s.
As for cleaning the plastic residue from the barrels: it's no big deal. spray the bores down with solvent du jour, let soak a minute or two, repeat, then wad up a half of a paper towel and stuff it into each chamber and punch it out with a ramrod and you'll get the bores shiny clean with one pass. Run a dry patch through, wipe down & oil the inside & out and you're done. There is the occasional shotgun that won't come clean (see any of Dick Dastardly's postings on the subject) but all three of my SXSs clean up as described every time.

[Noz]

This information is restricted to Baikal/Remington Spartans. No experience with any of the others.
I have been unable to get a consistantly good pattern with the old Overshot/cushion wad/over power wad system.
The current advice is that the new shotguns have a forcing cone that is cut long specifically for plastic wads.
1 1/8 oz of reclaimed shot, Claybuster red wad, 65 grs of Pyrodex loaded into a AA hull and fired out of a 12 ga Spartan with modified chokes in both barrels works well for me.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

My standard shotgun load is the biggest Lee dipper in the set, I believe it is 4.4CC, leveled off full of FFg, a Circle Fly 1/8" over powder card, Circle Fly 1/2" fiber cushion wad, 1 1/8 ounces of #8 shot, Cirlcle Fly over shot card, a Winchester 209 primer, all stuffed into a Remington STS hull. I have used Winchester AA shells in the past, and their internal capacity is similar enough that this load works in them too. As a side note, this load does not quite fill up the case, crimps tend to be a slight bit concave. Rather than add more powder or shot I put the over shot card on top of the shot and that levels out the crimp, and more importantly it keeps any shot from dribbling out of the crimp if it does not quite close.

This load is actually a bit less than a square load, in that the powder charge is a bit less by volume than the shot charge. This presents no problem with patterning, it is when there is more powder by volume that problems start to arise with holes being blown in patterns. With a bit less powder patterns are fine. I don't recall right now, but I think my 4.4CC dipper of FFg comes to around 65 or 68 grains, depending on the brand of powder. I can look it up in my reloading notebook later to verify the load.

I'm not saying I would use this as a trap or skeet load, but for CAS it always does the job. I have one old Stevens double barrel gun with 30" Full Choke barrels, and another that has been cut to 24" and is cylinder bore. It does not get much more extreme than that. With either of these guns, I get enough pellets on the target that I have never had a knockdown refust to go down. This load clobbers them all either with full choke or cylinder bores.

It has been my experinece that often times it is not so much the fault of the load, but sometimes shooters just don't realize where there shotgun is actually shooting. I know where mine hit, and this load clobbers everything.

[Howdy Doody]

There is some great input on you question pard. It would seem that there are as many methods as there are BP shogun loaders.
I might as well spell out mine.
I use a Mec too. I bought the adjustable charge bar and set and locked my 2F powder to drop exactly 4.3 cc and yes I load my powder right into the plastic bottle. I set and locked my shot drop at one ounce. The thing I do different from a lot of others is I mix my shot. I take near equal portions of #6 and #7 1/2 shot and mix them in a bowl with a wooden dowel. I drop the mixed into the plastic bottle and load away. I use the red Winchester wads or the Claybuster equivilent ones and crimp. I have patterned mine on cardboard and find that the pattern stays tight to ten yards and opens up. I have real good luck with flyers and pop ups and that one once load blasts the heck out of any size shotgun target without fail. I shoot one SXS with chokes called IMP/MOD. I find it shoots about the same as my unchoked ones. It gets it done for CAS, but if you were to shoot skeet or hunt, you would have to figure another load.
My loads are mild to shoot, I save about 1/8th ounce of shot that most use and it has worked fine for years, so I don't change anything.
So there is another load and method to consider. 

[Capt. Augustus]

After my shoulder replacement, I didn't think that I would ever fire a shotgun from the shoulder again.  A pard gave me a light smokeless load that had no recoil, so there I was buying shotgun stuff again.  Then I started thinking, is there a light BP load.  So I loaded up a few AA hulls with 30 grains of 3F a gray wad and 1 oz. of shot.  Fired them through my Stevens 311, and they fkattened the knockdown fine.

So once I get my Open Tops holstered, I'll be back making smoke.

[Wills Point Pete]

 I have a little to add, here. A "square load" is always a good place to start but there is no reason not to experiment, here. The old Brits were the kings and queens of shotgunning and they liked to load a scoop of powder that was 3/4s as big as the scoop for shot in their muzzle loading shotguns. In my (admittedly limited) experiments this also works for cartridge shotguns. My double is choked I?C-Mod. A "square load" with the Winchester Red or Claybuster equivalent give me a pattern a little looser than that. A load with the same wads but with that powder scoop at 3/4 pg the shot scoop gives me just about Imp Mod/Full. Those old fashioned fiber wads are like spreader loads in my gun.

As for stuff to add, I bought some wooden sparklers and dropped some of those, cut up, I couldn't see anything in broad daylight, in the dark there was a little something. I would not use glitter, that stuff is so light it blows around in the wind and it is sharp. If any drifted under an eyeglass and got in the eye it would be bad business. Feathers are interesting but if the BP flame lights them off, stinky. Confetti is visually impressive. Blue line marking chalk adds to the smoke. I couldn't see any color in red chalk the one time I tried that, perhaps under different lighting but I only had a little that I begged from a Pard. The next experiment I will do is plain white flour, I think that will add to the smoke as well as anything.

[Dalton Masterson]

I wonder if the flour will ignite in a fireball at the muzzle, like nondairy creamer over a lighter?? SOunds like some experimenting is in order for me too.
My 12 ga loads, consist of AA hulls, AAred wads, 72 gr. Pyrodex (at the moment to use up the cheap stuff) and 1 oz #8.
Has always been a good load, and even used it hunting. This was out of my 18+" barreled 97, but it works in my TTN as well. Good load, good boom, and the plastic is very ez to remove. DM

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

Nozzle Rag touched on this bit of advice and I'll elaborate a bit more.  I got this info from several shotgun experts/"gun mechanics", starting with Nate Kiowa Jones - a GREAT gunsmith.   My talk with him stemmed from a question to him about the barrels and chambers in my old Stoeger double. 

I did the "polish job" on the chambers, which were pretty good from the factory - I just tweaked it.  The Stoeger had very smooth chambers and bores, but the loooonng forcing cones were rough as a cob.  I asked Nate if I should have them polished.  He said no, not necessary, as they were MEANT to be rough.     said I.   He explained that the long forcing cones worked best with plastic wads, but Stoeger left theirs rough so that if a shooter, like me, were using card wads, the wads would tend to "catch" on the rough surface which helps separate the wad from the shot column.  It helps those of us BP shooters get as much performance as possible with loads NOT intended for the shotgun to use.  The card wads won't expand to fill the bore like plastic will.

He said that card wads work best (and plastic works OK, too) in short "coned" barrels.  Now that I have traded my Stoeger in for an old Tula hammered double (with short forcing cones), my BP loads with card wads seem to do quite well.  It's hard to say HOW well, as the few places I shoot have swingers only - no KnockDowns.

My BP load (about the only thing I shoot these days - Wally World sells smokeyless loads cheap enough for the few times I need them) is as follows:  MagTech brass 12 ga. Hulls - 1 oz. (by VOLUME, NOT WEIGHT) of 2f or 3f and 1 1/8 OZ of shot (measured in the same adjustable Lee dipper).  I started with "square loads" as Driftwood and many others advise, and found that an equal charge of powder and shot - in MY guns at least - was improved by using the next higher amount of shot vs. powder, and the cards don't blow through the pattern which will ruin it.  IF I remember, 1 oz. (by vol.) of 3f is around 63-68 grs. (weight) of 3f.


By the way, the longer forcing cones are felt by many to lower (somewhat) the felt recoil.  There's a whole "industry" dedicated to re-reaming old shotgun barrels for people who feel it helps.  Personally, I couldn't tell a difference between my old Stoeger and my Tula.  And ... the Tula weighs a bit LESS, so theoretically,  I should feel more kick - what with the short cones and the lighter weight ... but I don't. 

[Griff]

Steel Horse is right, the type of load you use is somewhat dependent on what type of shotgun you're using.  I have two Stoeger 12gauges, an Uplander and a Coachgun, I have polished the chambers and the forcing cones, as I use plastic wads.  I load on a MEC 600Jr. and simply use a #41 bushing and 1oz of shot.  Over the past 20+ years I've loaded BP, both 3F and 2F, along with 777 and Pyrodex.    It works well in both guns, even in my open bore Riverside Arms made in 1919.  You can overthink things.

[Flinch Morningwood]

Lots of good info here!

Does anyone know how cc's relate to oz's or grains?  This might help me compare my loads to the ones listed here...

I shoot an old 16 GA bugger and the only thing that will shuck is 2.5" shells...some experimenting has lead me to 7/8 oz Pyrodex RS, over powder card, lubed fiber wad, over shot card (to keep the lubed wad from gumming up my Lee Load-all push down tube when I seat it), and 7/8 oz #7 shot closed up with a 8 point crimp...using a CHED paper 2.75" hull cut down to 2.5".


The paper hull and fiber wad eliminates the plastic I had to clean out of the barrel after every shoot...haven't had any knock trouble so far but it's early in this loads history...

[JL McGillicuddy]

Well, now I have come up with another part to the question.  I am loading for a gun with 2 3/4 chambers (baikal/remington spartan). I have determined that it likes card wads, so I am going that way and was thinking about roll crimping for the 12 gauge. 

Will I need to use new hulls or can I roll crimp by trimming the old crimp off of once fired 2 3/4 shells?  What are the ramifications if I am roll crimping and coming up with shorter shells?  Will it mess with my patterns or should it be ok as long as a decent load fits into the shell?

Griff, old son, I have quite the talent for overthinking things.  Sort of a family trait you might say.  On the other hand, asking lots of questions has saved me from several potential headaches so far.

Thanks gang!
Jack Lee

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Hey Jack!

Trimming and ending up with shorter shells will be fine!

The card wad over my brass loads are over 1/2" down inside the case.  It shouldn't matter a bit!  Now one thing here.  I don't load plastic, but from my pards who do, they only get one good re-load from a plastic hull - after that, the BP heat starts to mess with them and can melt the plastic.  This is using "once fired/loaded" shells picked up from the range - usually the old Red AA or the Green or Gold (?) Fed (I think) hulls.  NO problem with brass. (But I doubt you'll find any BRASS shells abandoned on a range!) 

Now here's something else:  Federal still makes paper shells.  (I think you can also get new paper empties from Ballistic Products.)  They can be re-loaded a number of times with BP.  I don't know how many times, but many simply trim off the crimped part and do it again.  They can probably get 3-4 reloads.  Maybe a few more.  MANY BP shooters PREFER the paper shell - but they're not very common "Range finds."  Also, if you DO find some at a range, don't bother with them if the empties you find on the ground have been 'thru a rainy season - the paper will swell and be unusable.  This is the reason that the US Military adopted the brass shells, and now plastic.  No swelling due to moisture.

[Dick Dastardly]

Conversion of cc to grains. . . .  Roughly 16 grains per cc.  It will vary with different brands, granulations and batches.  But not a lot.

I came up with this factor by weighing known volumes.

DD-DLoS

[hellgate]

I have found that the paper federal hulls don't shuck out of my chambers like the plastic ones so i have to pull them out by hand. If I need speed I don't use them but otherwise they are like an old friend. After several shots the barrels get hot and a little wax can melt out of the paper. I'm not sure it causes any problem.

[fourfingersofdeath]

We had a guy and his wife shoot at the Winter Roundup in Adelaide last week. He was shooting the off load using the stuff they colour concrete with. These shot produced red smoke. Looked ok, but I wasn't real keen on taking a breath as it wafted over me while I was waiting on the loading table. I got smart and generally got the drop on hime and got in front. When i didn't manage that, I stayed back until he was done. The wind was strong and mostly blowing right accross the range, so he seemed to get the loading/unloading table every time. Probably ok, but I wasn't keen to experiment with my lungs.

I have always considered putting iron or aluminium filings in the powder to get a shower of sparks, never got around to trying it though.