Fingers McGee

[Major Matt Lewis]

Hey pard,

The trouble I am still having is that   I could not get even #11 Remington caps to fit on the Treso nipples.  So I put the stock nipples back on.  Hopefully them with cap guards will be a winning combo.

[Mako]

Major,
I'm assuming this is a continuation of your comments in the thread about Thunder Ridge vs. Treso nipples.  I can almost guarantee you that your problem is that the top of the nipples are "mushroomed" or flared a bit.  Take your nipples and look at them from the side. you might see a slight enlargement.  Tresos are normally very well made but I have had them come a bit flared from the factory.

I'm going to offer a solution, but there are actually several things that need to be examined.

1. To fix the nipples:
Unless you have a lathe you are going to use a power drill.  Get a Ø 3/8" wooden dowel and cut a 2 inch length.  Now drill a starter hole on one end using a Ø 3/32" drill bit.  It is tricky to getting it centered, you can either try to noramlly drill and keep cutting the dowel back until you get it on center, or you can use this trick.  Clamp the drill bit in a vise, chuck the dowel in the drill,  run it up against the drill bit.  The dowel will run true relative to the axis of the drill and you will get a concentric hole even if the drill is cutting off center.  You used a bit of smaller diameter than final drill bit to allow for this off center cutting.

After you get a 1/4" to 3/8" deep starter hole switch to a Ø5/32 drill bit and open the hole and making it at least 3/8" deep.  Before you go any furtyher consider this, it is important because your drill chuck probably bit into and deformed the wooden dowel, if you remove the dowel it will never be perfectly centered again.  It really doesn't matter but it will spin out of center slightly and make your job a bit more difficult.

Now simply screw your nipples into the Ø5/32 hole, the nipple threads will create threads in the dowel. The drilled hole is slightly smaller than the minor diameter of the #12-28 thread (I'm assuming your Navy models are Ubertis, if not then the Pietta is M6X.75 which is a bit larger).  Run your drill at slow speed using the trigger switch lock if it has one and you are going to use it like a small lathe.  Take a very fine file ( get a set of needle files if you don't have them, or get one fine tooth flat single cut file) and hold it parallel to the tapered surface of the conical portion of the nipple and let it ride against the mushroomed head.  If you don't have a file you can also use 220 grit abrasive paper, "wet and dry" paper intended for use with metals works best but you can use "sand paper" intended for wood working in a pinch.  You can cut strips and glue them to a flat piece of wood or wrap it around a small flat piece.

You will not be trying to do anything other than get the mushroomed area down to flush with the sides of the conical portion of the nipple.  At this point don't try to put a chamfer or remove anything off of the top face of the nipple.  Once you remove the mushroomed portion take a cap and carefully try it on the nipple.  If it is live be very careful.  You can create a "dummy cap" by killing the priming compound. Dunk it in penetrating oil and letting it sit overnight.  Clean it off in the morning and mark it with a Sharpie designate it as a "dummy cap."  It should fit but notice how far the cap goes down on the nipple.  You might want to mark the nipple with the cap in place and then remove the cap and compare it to the mark side-by-side.  Remember, it only has to go to the priming compound, this is why you need an intact cap as your dummy.  If it does not fully seat take your file and break a very small edge on the nipple using your drill as a lathe.  (Notice I haven't said remove the nipple yet.  Do everything  before removing it.  You don't want a large chamfer because that limits the "anvil" face you want to have the hammer crush the priming compound against.

Your goal is to produce a snug fit that requires a bit of effort to remove, but it must fully seat.  If the cap does not fully seat you will get misfires because the hammer forcing the cap down on the nipple will absorb some of your hammer force . If it is too loose your caps will fall off.  Now take some fine steel wool and hold it on the nipple as you spin it in the drill.

Now you're finished.  You can clean your nipples periodically using only steel wool in your little "lathe" set up.  Also re-inspect for some minor flaring or mushrooming, you may get some as time goes by.  Also this should go without saying, but  NEVER dryfire a percussion revolver.  If you do you will mushroom the face of the nipples on a correctly spaced cylinder.  Dryfiring is a completely different subject I might get into at some later date.  I believe in dryfiring and dryfiring a lot for practice, but not with a percussion revolver.  One point...removing the nipples for dryfiring is not the best solution because your hammer will strike the back of the frame somewhere in the middle of the hammer and the leverage of the top of the hammer about this point can break your hammer. But that is a different subject.  I use my Open Top revolvers with snap caps to dry fire, but because the hammer throw is shorter than the percussion  revolvers it's not a true analogue.  But, it is better than nothing.

2.  Check your hammer to see how far it falls relative to the nipple face:
This will require you to disassemble your frame.  Take everything out, gut the frame.   Now take the hammer without the hand and replace it in the frame and reinsert the hammer  screw.  Take the cylinder with the nipples installed and place it back on the cylinder arbor, now reinstall the barrel and seat the wedge so it just passes the retaining spring on the wedge.  I have observed most people over insert the wedge, unless the gun is old or heavily worn it really should be inserted just to the point it is retained.  (This is one "secret" to having a reliable CAS percussion revolver.

Now hold the pistol with the barrel pointing straight down, make sure the hammer is  forward to the "hammer down" position.  Holding the pistol by the barrel slide the cylinder up on the arbor and watch the hammer.  You should see the hammer move back before the rear of the cylinder reaches the breach face.  If it doesn't then your nipples are too short.  If the hammer moves immediately then your nipples may be a bit too long.  Theoretically the ideal situation is for the hammer to just be just touching the face of the nipple with the cylinder pushed forward against the face of the forcing cone.  Note this is one possible firing position for a clean pistol, as the pistol is fired the residue building up at the forcing cone and the junction of the barrel arbor with the cylinder hole will often prevent the cylinder from going fully forward.  Now go back and notice I said "MAY" be too long.  It may also be perfect.  To further check this knock the wedge out slightly and re-inspect.  This can be tricky, be careful before you decide to remove material off of the nipple face.  I can't emphasize this enough, it would be preferable to have a few thousands of an inch engagement rather than have it be short.

If you have access to calipers you can measure the height of your individual nipples from the face to the bottom of the shoulder where it snugs up against the face of the cylinder.   You will probably find this dimension runs about .290" to .295".

The Treso nipples are much better than the originals, they are uniform, have a better and much more consistent shape and the flash hole is smaller which helps with the reliability of the pistol as it gets dirty.  A lot of back blast comes back through that little hole and it fouls the ratchet and hand area of the frame.  You will find residue even shoots back into the frame through the hand slot.  Modern caps are powerful and hot and the smaller flash hole works to your advantage.  It is also safer.   I believe almost all flash-overs causing multiple chamber ignitions occur at the breach and not at the muzzle end of the cylinder.  Loose fitting or missing caps are the primary culprits.  I personally believe that the grease over balls to prevent chain firing is an "urban myth" perpetuated by gun magazine writers and other writings.  Grease was used just as we do to help with fouling.  Lubricants were already being used in other firearms to keep the fouling soft and allow them to continue functioning when revolvers were introduced.

Lastly, I hope you haven't tried to reduce the power of your mainspring.  If you have, remove whatever change you made, tighten your spring screw, or get a new spring.  I wish you could get heavier springs made for percussion pistols.  I have found I can buy springs from USFA intended for  SAA pistols and modify them slightly for the Uberti revolvers.  you have to shorten them ever so slightly.  The stock USFA springs are well made and a bit more powerful than the Uberti springs.  You can lighten the trigger return spring, but I wouldn't recommend it.  As the gun is fired residue finds its way into the frame through the hand slot and through the bolt opening.  That little trigger and bolt spring needs all of the help it can get.  I actually run round wire springs in mine, but a quality after market full power  flat spring will work as well.  The Italian springs are not as good and tend to take a set after a while.

If you find any of this useful or even plausible I'll be happy you answer any other questions you might have.  I can make my 1860s or 1861s run a full match with a little attention to details, I'd be happy to share my experience.  Some of it actually applies to other revolvers shooting real powder and especially those without gas shields like conversion pistols.

Best of luck,
Mako

[Noz]

Mako, I approached this problem from the same direction as did you except I used a cordless drill so that the rpms were much slower. I chuck the threads of the nipple directly into the chuck on the drill. As long as I hold the speed down I see no deformation of the threads.

A broadhead file as obtained from a full service archery shop is great for this touch up.

[hellgate]

The Tresos like the #10 Remington cap. The #11 is too big.

[Cuts Crooked]

Use a full 1/2" drill and close the chuck on the "shoulder" of the nipple. Been doing this for over twenty years to correct nip problems. Won't damage the threads and it gives perfect control at low speed.

[Mako]

The Tresos like the #10 Remington cap. The #11 is too big.

Hellgate,
I'm not trying to be contrary but after reading your reply I went out and checked the fit on my Treso nipples.  I disassemble my percussion guns for cleaning and to watch for any corrosion after matches. I rarely reassemble until just before the next match so I had  the cylinders out of my '60s and one of the '61s, I  tried all 18 nipples with a Remington #10.  "No Joy..."  They won't fully seat even using a dowel.  I keep spares and I tried a virgin Treso straight from the package and had the same result.

I know I have been using Remington #11 caps on Treso nipples since at least 2005.  The ones still in the package were from last year.  The ones on the '61 are older and were from a local gun shop, the ones on the '60s are from Thunder Ridge.  The one from the package is also from Thunder Ridge but they were ordered last year, it is possible the ones from Thunder Ridge were all from the same lot even though obtained over a year apart.  I have two pairs of revolvers that have Treso nipples and I use #11s on all.  They aren't too loose by any stretch of the imagination.

I guess they may make some specifically for #10 caps, but I'm pretty sure the part number designates the cap size.  Mine are part number  11-50-166 (#12-28 thread for Ubertis) which is the package of six.  I might be wrong I always assumed  the 11 prefix is for cap size.

If I use #10 Remington Caps I get misfires because they don't fully seat.  The hammer blow is partially absorbed by the seating and deformation of the cap during the hammer fall.  I have several tins of #10s I can't use.

What kind of pistol are yours installed on and do you know what the part number was?

Regards,
Mako

[Steel Horse Bailey]

The Tresos like the #10 Remington cap. The #11 is too big.

Hellgate,
I'm not trying to be contrary but after reading your reply I went out and checked the fit on my Treso nipples.  I disassemble my percussion guns for cleaning and to watch for any corrosion after matches. I rarely reassemble until just before the next match so I had  the cylinders out of my '60s and one of the '61s, I  tried all 18 nipples with a Remington #10.  "No Joy..."  They won't fully seat even using a dowel.  I keep spares and I tried a virgin Treso straight from the package and had the same result.

I know I have been using Remington #11 caps on Treso nipples since at least 2005.  The ones still in the package were from last year.  The ones on the '61 are older and were from a local gun shop, the ones on the '60s are from Thunder Ridge.  The one from the package is also from Thunder Ridge but they were ordered last year, it is possible the ones from Thunder Ridge were all from the same lot even though obtained over a year apart.  I have two pairs of revolvers that have Treso nipples and I use #11s on all.  They aren't too loose by any stretch of the imagination.

I guess they may make some specifically for #10 caps, but I'm pretty sure the part number designates the cap size.  Mine are part number  11-50-166 (#12-28 thread for Ubertis) which is the package of six.  I might be wrong I always assumed  the 11 prefix is for cap size.

If I use #10 Remington Caps I get misfires because they don't fully seat.  The hammer blow is partially absorbed by the seating and deformation of the cap during the hammer fall.  I have several tins of #10s I can't use.

What kind of pistol are yours installed on and do you know what the part number was?
Regards,
Mako

I'm ALSO not being contrary, but the TRESO nips (for a Colt 2nd Gen, 1st Mod Dragoon) I got from Thunder Ridge last summer (2007) also only fit with the #11 Remingtons.  Don't know why - the add and paperwork even STATES that #10 s are the correct size, but ... 

Bad thing is this:  where I bought my caps last said they quit stocking Remington caps because their sizing was inconsistent. 

[Mako]

Steel Horse,
I think the info you saw was from the old site and the old owners of Thunder Ridge. The current site doesn't have any reference to #10 caps.

I do wish to point out I may have been mistaken in my reply to Hellgate.  I said I thought the part number prefix of 11 might designate the cap size.  It appears all of the Treso tubes have a part number beginning with 11; it may simply be the Treso product line number, but they do specify they are for #11 caps.

I would like to put a plug in for the new owners of Thunder Ridge.  I had bought 24 of the old Thunder Ridge Stainless tubes just before the business was sold.  I tried to use them and I was unimpressed with the quality and consistency.  Some were literally poorer quality than the original tubes.  I contacted Thunder Ridge and found it under new management. I spoke with Bob, he told me they had been left with a pile of tubes that looked like they should have been rejected.  He also told me he suspected that anything lying around was being sent at the very end right before they bought the business.  He told me I wasn't the only one who had wanted to return some items.  I hadn't bought the tubes from him, but he made good on all 24 and sent me new ones.  That means he basically ate the cost of the 24 new ones he sent.  Now that is the COWBOY WAY...  I went ahead and gave them a big order for other accessories, lube and ballistol to at least help them recoup some cost.  We need to support merchants like them,  keep them high on your prefered list.

Regards,
Mako

[Major Matt Lewis]

Honestly all that dremmling and drilling seem like too much work.  With the cap shields on, I just figured I would try the stock nipples.  I figure that would be OK.  So, stock nipples and Number 10 Remy caps should HOPEFULLY do it....

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Steel Horse,
I think the info you saw was from the old site and the old owners of Thunder Ridge. The current site doesn't have any reference to #10 caps.
...........................
Regards,
Mako

Actually, the #10 was reference was prominently displayed on their old site.  Which is when I started looking.  I'll bet the webpage changed right after the ownership changed.  If that is true, then I dealt with the new ownership ... and I'll second your recommendation of them as a good dealer to do business with!

Also, I really don't care WHAT size fits, and around HERE the size 11s seem to be more plentiful!

[Fingers McGee]

 

Howdy y'all,

Just checked in and found this post.  Sorry to hear that you're having all this trouble with the Treso Nipples Matt.  The suggestions that have been given by Noz, Mako and the others about checking for mushroomed nipples and the procedure for dressing them is all good.  I've had to do that to some that got mushroomed on my SS Uberti 1851 Navy cause the hammer came forward too much.  Had to dress the face of the hammer back to keep from happening again.

I have always - well almost always - used #10 Remingtons on my Treso Nipples.  I have them on my Colts, Ubertis and Piettas.  the 11-50-166s in the Colts and Ubertis & the 11-50-106s in the Piettas.  I tried the #11s and they fit looser and would come off.  I only use #10's now and do not use a push stick.  The pressure used in putting them on using a Cash revolver (snail) capper is sufficient to seat them - even after 10 or more stages.  Rarely does a cap fail to ignite on the first try.  By rarely, I mean maybe one match out of six or eight I'll have cap problems that seem to be from an out of tolerance tin of caps - can't say batch cause I buy them 1000 at a time.  There is usually no rhyme or reason to the trouble, and it's not always the same gun or chamber.  Of course, It could just be me too.  I get distracted easy sometimes and may not do a good job capping.

I'm not doubting what anyone here is saying about their own experiences.  I'm just stating what experience I have had and what works for me.

Matt - It's a shame you're not able to make LandRun - we could do some working/shooting/tweaking then to get your guns going.  Baring that, we'll just have to try to do it in May for POP.

If you've done the cap guard mod to your guns, you shouldn't have too many problems regardless of nipples and caps.  They reportedly compensate for a multitude of sins.  Not having the mod done to any of my guns, I cant speak with authority on it.

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee
SASS 28654-L-TG
Frontiersman & Rangemaster

[Mako]

If you've done the cap guard mod to your guns, you shouldn't have too many problems regardless of tubes and caps.  They reportedly compensate for a multitude of sins.  Not having the mod done to any of my guns, I cant speak with authority on it.

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee
SASS 28654-L-TG
Frontiersman & Rangemaster

Fingers,
I wish they did  compensate for a MULTITUDE of sins... Cap guards are simply a narrowing of the hammer opening.  They are installed on the face of the recoil shield, the original "Manhattan Style" are just thin metal  soldered in place (to understand what they look like think pieces of sheet metal on either side of the hammer opening.)  They just narrow the width to that you would find on a Remington revolver.  It requires narrowing the hammer where it extends through the shield (refer to a Remington again).

They don't do anything for the reliability other than help prevent the dreaded cap falling into the action you get more often with the Colt style frame.  I said help prevent because you even get this on Rugers and Remingtons from time to time.  It won't prevent misfires or problems with poorly fitting caps or tubes.

They work best when the caps flatten and split after firing but don't break apart.  I can't conclusively say, but it seemed like I had more  problems with the caps fragmenting more with the narrowed hammer, but all in all they work pretty well.  The ones I had installed were done rather crudely and I had the opportunity to sell them to someone who really wanted them badly.  I am planning on doing my own next time.

Regards,
Mako

[Pettifogger]

Cap guards.  They work pretty well.  All I use is Tresos and Remington #10s.  The cap guards provide that extra edge against problems in competition.

[River City John]

One other thing that will help keep caps out of the works is to make sure your mainspring is heavy enough to detonate yet not allow some bounce back of the hammer.

I had a stiff mainspring in my '72 Open Top and too light a spring in my Leech & Rigdon. Since they were identical in form and both Uberti parts, the easy fix was to swap them out and it improved performance on both revolvers.