44/40 Reloading, Need some advice for the Henry

[Peter M. Eick]

I started setting up the dies for my foray into 44/40 reloading and found a problem that I need your help on. 

The basic facts,
RCBS standard dies
Lyman M expander
Lee FCD die
Lasercast 200 grn FP RN bullets
Wilson cartridge gauge (all fit fine)

The issue is that when I seat to 1.592 (lasercast recommended length for rifles) I am fine until I run it through the FCD die.  Here the crimp die is forcing the brass into the crimp groove and reducing the COL to 1.583 when I get what I would call  a decent crimp.  1.592 is no crimp, 1.585 is a mild crimp, 1.583 is a decent crimp.

I thought I read that 44/40 you should be very careful with the henry about going too short for a cartridge.  So to check this I loaded up about 25 and tried cycling 4 through the gun.  I have to admit I was very careful doing this inside the house and it made me nervous doing it, but they all cycled just fine. 

So after an extensive search of my reloading books I could not find the shortest you can load the 44/40 before it is a jam with the henry.


My question is how short is too short and is should I be worried about 1.583?

Thanks!

[Will Ketchum]

With any of the toggle link rifles (Henry, 66, and the 73) I am happy with any OAL that cycles reliably.  I think your 1.583 should be fine as long as they cycle.  My Henry was modified so it will even feed 44 Russians so I don't worry about getting them too short.


Will Ketchum

[Trailrider]

Will's got it right!  Whatever works!  My 20-odd year old Navy Arms Henry works just fine with 1.581" .44-40 rounds.  BTW, I use the seat/crimp die from my REGULAR RCBS dies, seating and crimping at the same time.  I do use a .44 Magnum expander plug in the expander die body, as I use .430" dia. bullets, with Winchester brass.  Hope this helps.

[Peter M. Eick]

Thanks.

I figured I would ask before I crank off a hundred or so and see how they do.  It is a hassle to get to the range so I try and cover my bases before I go out there. 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

In order to cycle properly, OAL for a toggle link rifle has to fall within a certain window. This may vary a bit from rifle to rifle.

There is no cartridge stop on these rifles as there is with some other designs. The cartridge on the carrier prevents the next round from feeding out of the magazine. Spring pressure keeps the round on the elevator pressed back against the back of the elevator. In order for the elevator to rise smoothly there must be a little bit of clearance between the nose of the bullet on the elevator and the frame.

Since the round on the elevator prevents the next round from poking out of the magazine tube, OAL determines how much of the next round will protrude. The shorter the OAL, the more protrudes. The elevator has a bevel built into it that sweeps the protruding round back into the magazine as the elevator rises past. If too much of the round is protruding out, it exceeds the length of the bevel and the elevator cannot sweep it back in, but instead will jam against the round as it tries to rise. A general rule of thumb for any toggle link rifle is that its ideal OAL should leave about the thickness of a cartridge rim of space in front of the cartridge on the elevator. The elevator can easily sweep that much cartrdge back into the magazine.

As I said, these rifles can vary. My '73 requires a much longer round than normal to function properly, actually a bit longer than the recommended OAL of the 44-40, a bit longer than 1.592. However, my steel framed Henry, which I believe is identical to yours, will not function with those rounds, they are too long for it. They literally jam on the frame as the elevator tries to rise. I have been loading my 44-40 ammo to 1.575-1.580 for my Henry and it functions fine with that OAL.

As you have dicovered, depending on the shape of the bullet, the Lee Factory Crimp Die can tend to shift the position of a bullet in the case as you crimp it. This is mostly dependent on the actual shape of the crimp groove of the specific bullet, and exactly where in the groove the crimp occurs. What happens is you first seat the bullet to a specific depth in the seating die. Then, if there is any taper to the crimp groove, as the crimp is formed, the bullet can be wedged up or down a little bit as the die squeezes the brass into the crimp groove. That's why you are getting slightly different lengths, depending on how much you crimp. It's also one of the reasons I do not like the Lee FCD, but prefer to simply seat and crimp in one step.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Driftwood;  I love my LEE collet style crimp dies in .44-40 & .38-40.  I've never had a problem in my orig. '73 .44-40, (Re-lined barrel).

Your explanation of how the toggle link action works while reloading is excelent

[Peter M. Eick]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the feedback and comments.  At the very least it is assuring that I am not traveling on new territory. 

Driftwood,

It looked to me that I could easily take the 1.583 rounds and run them through my steel framed henry and get them to cycle.  The concern I have is having a loaded gun like the henry in the house without any form of safety.  Thus I was very leery about loading up a bunch of rounds and cycling them through the gun.  I guess the next step is to do so and see what happens.

I figured I would start with the FCD because the collet die was a reasonable place to start.  I am now thinking that maybe I will get another RCBS seater die and just use it as a separate crimp die and try that out.  I like to experiment with the reloading tools to find the right solution so this will be an interesting experiment.

Thanks to every one for the comments and help in getting the reloading working on the henry.  The 44-40 is not that hard to load for on my progressive but I can see that if you get lax you could easily squash a case or mis-align the bullet in the case.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Why get another die and use it as a separate seating die? Why not just use the die the way it was designed in the first place to seat and crimp in one step?

There are lots of shooters who will tell you that you have to seat and crimp separately when loading 44-40. I just can't get over how wide spread that opinion has gotten. I've been seating and crimping 44-40 for years in one step. You just have to take the time to set the die up carefully.

[Trailrider]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the feedback and comments.  At the very least it is assuring that I am not traveling on new territory. 

Driftwood,

It looked to me that I could easily take the 1.583 rounds and run them through my steel framed henry and get them to cycle.  The concern I have is having a loaded gun like the henry in the house without any form of safety.  Thus I was very leery about loading up a bunch of rounds and cycling them through the gun.  I guess the next step is to do so and see what happens.

I figured I would start with the FCD because the collet die was a reasonable place to start.  I am now thinking that maybe I will get another RCBS seater die and just use it as a separate crimp die and try that out.  I like to experiment with the reloading tools to find the right solution so this will be an interesting experiment.

Thanks to every one for the comments and help in getting the reloading working on the henry.  The 44-40 is not that hard to load for on my progressive but I can see that if you get lax you could easily squash a case or mis-align the bullet in the case.

Howdy, Pard,
Why not make up a bunch of dummy rounds, no powder, no primers.  For safety sake, use a permanent marker to indicate these are dummy rounds.  Then, keep them SEPARATE from live ammo by a good bit.  You can then cycle them through your action without fear of a disaster.  Another precaution is to tie a leather thong around the COCKED hammer.  This would NOT prevent an accidental discharge if the firing pin on a toggle-link action freezes in the breech block, but it gives another safety point.

Ride careful, Pard!

[sharps50/70]

I agree with Driftwood.  I seat and crimp my 44/40s for my Henry in one step.  On problems once you have the die properly set up.

Rich

[Henry4440]

Do the same as sharps50/70 and DJ.Seat and crimp in one step.Never had any problems.

[Peter M. Eick]

Why not?  No particular reason to be honest other then habit.

I load on a pro2000 and I could either seat and crimp on one step (stage 5) and use a powder check die on 4 or I could seat on 4 and crimp on 5 and not use the powder check die. 

I tend to go with the powder check route when I don't have enough powder to spill out a double charge but I have found after nearly 200,000 rounds loaded on the pro2000, that I am in the habit of putting the bullet into 4 as part of my muscle memory and putting it in stage 5 is weird.  It takes a lot of concious thought to do that instead of thinking about inspecting the round as my hands just do it on their own.

Thus to not mess up my routine, I seat and crimp separate more from a consistency pattern then anything else. 

I have tried not putting a die in 5 but seeing the cartridge come up through the die plate is too odd to tolerate so I had to fill the space with something.

This is probably not the best use of the resources, but I am very cautious about KB's or squibs and so far I have avoided them.  Thus I don't want to mess up my routine since it has worked this far.

[tteng]

Don't know if you've tried copper-plated bullet (429-dia, 180gr FN) w/ 8gr of Unique.  My 1860 Uberti is very forgiving w/ my load: even if the bullet is seated slightly crooked in some instance.  I have a tang-sight, and by playing w/ the trigger spring (be careful there), that rifle can shoot 3 to 4" group at 100yrds all day long from the bench.  I believe the secret is the 429-dia bullet, for I've shot several commercial/cowboy Lead FN load (427-dia or so) and the best I can get is 5-6" at 50yrd.

[Nine Toe Jim]

Howdy, Just thought I'd put my 44/40 loading info on here to add to the confusion HAW!
I have a 44/40 Uberti model 66 that I purchased in January of 1986. I've tried numerous loads, bullets and dies over the years. For the last 5 years or so I've been loading with a Dillon Square Deal and their 44/40 dies. I use the new Lyman 4 cavity cowboy action mould #2670666 to cast 200 gn FN bullets. I put a good crimp in the crimp grove and the overall length of the finished product comes out to 1.532 in. I've never had a hangup or a jam since I started reloading this way. The die set is a 4 die set. Seating and crimping separate.

I haven't taken a Henry apart but I'm sure its Identical in parts to the 66 except for the loading gate.