Are our Toggle links Stronger Than We Think ?

[sundance44`s]

I just finished reading an article in my newest Guns Of The Old West on the 1876 Winchester Chaparral offered in 45/75..45/60..50/90 ..sounds a bit stout loadings for a Toggle link action ...The only difference I see with the action is the addition of a dust cover over the top loading gate ..which might serve as a cover to keep the blowback out of ones eyes .
I know this is suppose to stay 1860 and 66 models here ..but after reading about this 1876 and it being a Toggle Link action ..I just couldn`t but ask the pro`s ..

[Deadeye Don]

If you have actually seen the toggle links in a 76, you would understand better.  They are massive compared to the 73 or 66.

[sundance44`s]

I `ve only seen a pic of the inside of the rifle ...all I could tell from the pic was that ..it was a Toggle Link action ..Don`t think I`d care for one with such a massive loading like the 50/90 

[Marshal Deadwood]

You should read the thread on the  test they put the 1876 thur.

A 50-90 loaded with bp is mild milk indeed to that test...

As Deadeye said,,we ain't talkin' '66's and '73's here...the 1876 was/is a  massive rifle  DESINGNED for these original heavy rounds.

The activeness of the 45-60 is NOT a strength issue, but one of easier to acquire and less expensive reloading components nowadays.

I'm bout to 'bust a gut to round up funds for one...

MD

[Coffinmaker]

The '76 will stand any Black Powder load you can get into the case in the cartridges it's chambered for.  It will also tolerate the same pressure levels in smokeless loadings.  Way back in the "way back" a '76 was tested to failure.  The pressure it was subjected to was insane.  The failure was not catastrophic.  Close, but not quite.  There is however, a vast difference in the rifle surviving one "hot" round, and the damage that WILL occur shooting rounds beyond recommended pressure levels.
The links themselves may not fail, but the pivot pins will be damaged, both the pins in the frame and the pins in the breach block.  A little too much shooting of "over the top" loads will damage the rifle and turn it into a wall hanger.
Damn fine rifle.

Coffinmaker

PS:  Reproduction '66, Henry & 73's aren't nearly as forgiving. 

[Marshal Deadwood]

Error on previous post,,I said 'activeness',,should have been 'attractivness'...oops,<!

MD

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Sundance;  The cover on the '73 and '76 does not move forward automatically.  It was meant to keep the action clean & dry before shooting.  It is pushed back by the lever when the action is cycled and stays there until manually moved forward.  On repeat shots it is seldom moved forward, in my experience.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Maxim machine guns that dealt death (on both sides) on an unimaginable scale in WWI were toggle links, as are Lugers.  It's a good design, but it must be heavy enough for the load.

[sundance44`s]

Sir Charles I was wondering about the cover movement ..so its just a dust cover . Looks like the 50/90 would put quite a blast of back pressure to the rear ..I thought maybe the cover was to protect the shooter from these gases and fouling . I wonder has anyone ever done the paper towel test over the opening and fired such a round . Maybe I`ll get to see one of these rifles at a side match ...probally not a good thing , might make me want one ..lol

[Fox Creek Kid]

Maxim machine guns that dealt death (on both sides) on an unimaginable scale in WWI were toggle links, as are Lugers.

They are totally different mechanisms and have as much in common as a four cylinder Model T and a four cylinder Lotus. The '76 action is not strong people. Dan Pharriss, who is the gunsmith columnist for Black Powder Cartridge News, and perhaps one of the best BPCR 'smiths in the country, refuses to shoot ANY toggle link, original or repro, with smokeless. Just remember that next time you drop the hammer on a smokeless round as you're closing your eyes and clicking your heels together three times while uttering "I know more than him."    He saw a fella lose an eye shooting smokeless in a repro. Bolt came out the back. It was not a double charge but the Uberti roll pin gave as SMOKELESS POWDER HAS AN INITIAL PRESSURE SPIKE THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM BP. Mike Venturino had a photo sometime back in one of his columns of an original destroyed with smokeless powder. The photo was shocking. It seems as if we have to "reinvent the wheel" on CAS City every few months or so and go through this smokeless/BP debate.

[Grizzly Adams]

Sir Charles I was wondering about the cover movement ..so its just a dust cover . Looks like the 50/90 would put quite a blast of back pressure to the rear ..I thought maybe the cover was to protect the shooter from these gases and fouling . I wonder has anyone ever done the paper towel test over the opening and fired such a round . Maybe I`ll get to see one of these rifles at a side match ...probally not a good thing , might make me want one ..lol

I have done so with both my 1876 and my 1873 replicas.  NOTHING I could detect comes back or out.

These guns are proofed for smokeless, and are perfectly safe using factory level loads.  Since the replicas of the 1873 have been available, countless BILLIONS of rounds of smokeless have been fired through them.  In fact, I suspect more smokeless ammo has been fired through these actions with the advent of CAS than was ever fired through them back in the day, using all the Holy Black in the Nation! 

Get yourself one and enjoy!

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I agree 99.9% with Fox Creek Kid. Toggle link rifles are not as inherently strong as later actions like the '86 and '92. The links only have strength when they are lined up straight as when the bolt is closed. (There may actually be a tiny bit of camming as the pivot points on the links go slightly past being perfectly locked up.) But if the links are not lined up straight, as in an out of battery discharge the links will fold just as surely as your legs will if you are standing up straight and somebody sneaks up behind you and shoves your knees forward. Just as your legs would collapse from under you, so will a set of toggle links fold from the force of recoil and the bolt will come straight back. Whether you get a nasty whack against your fingers from the lever, or whether the bolt comes straight back at your eye is a crap shoot.

Toggle links have no positive locking feature. The '86 and he '92 have a pair of solid steel locking bars that slide straight up in the frame to lock the bolt in place even before the bolt is fully in battery. If a discharge should happen, the bolt is not going anywhere, unless the charge is strong enough to rupture the frame. That's why the '86 and '92 did away with the trigger blocking interlock activated by the lever. There was no need, because the locking system made an out of battery discharge less hazardous.

I also agree with Fox Creek Kid about the different pressure spike with Smokeless and BP. You cannot compare them on a psi to psi basis. The pressure spike with Smokeless is sharper and will give the steel more of a shock than the gentler pressure curve of Black Powder.

The only .1% I dissagree with Fox Creek Kid is that I don't have a problem shooting SAAMI spec Smokeless ammo in a toggle link gun.

P.S. Happy Trails of the Smith shop has a neat solution to the potential problem of bolts flying back in Henrys and '66s. The bolt extension on these leverguns is only held in place on the bolt by a cross pin about 1/16" thick. If there is a problem such as an out of battery discharge, the only thing that keeps the bolt extension from flying out of the bolt is that 1/16" pin, and it can shear very easily. Hap mills a small slot on the underside of the bolt extension, and adds a set screw to the bolt that projects up into that slot. If the pin should shear, the set screw has a larger diameter and should retain the bolt extension. Since the Henry and '66 do not have the trigger block interlock, I had Hap install his retaining screw on my Henry when he did an action job to it.

[Marshal Deadwood]

If,,IF ,,im fortunate enough to every get a '76,,,blackpowder would be all I would shoot. I've been drifting away from smokeless anyways,,in the CAS shooting....and will evenutally be shooting bp in all my 'western guns',,shotgun included.

MD

[Fox Creek Kid]

Driftwood, actually I am torn on the issue if the truth be known. Like you I see no real problem with CAS level smokeless loads, however here's my REAL opinion. A large percentage of the people reloading smokeless powder today shouldn't be allowed to even own a screwdriver. The lethal cocktail is idiot + progressive reloading press =   . Too many shooters never learned basic reloading principles on a single stage press and started from square one slam bangin' on a Dillon. Granted, anti-powder bridging measures have helped a little but where there's an idiot there's a way. I've seen one gun blowup and countless squibs by reloaders in CAS. The progressive reloading press is more dangerous than a machine gun in the wrong hands IMO. 

[Buck Stinson]

If I might set the record straight here, the the original 1876 model Winchesters were NEVER available in .50-90.  They were made in .50-95 Express as well as .40-60, .45-60 and .45-75.  That goes for the Uberti reproductions also.  The .50-90 cartridge was a Sharps cartridge.  Believe me, the toggle link action of the 1876 model Winchester is more than strong enough for the .50-95 Express cartridge, reproductions included.

Adios,
Buck

[Grizzly Adams]

Howdy

I agree 99.9% with Fox Creek Kid. Toggle link rifles are not as inherently strong as later actions like the '86 and '92. The links only have strength when they are lined up straight as when the bolt is closed. (There may actually be a tiny bit of camming as the pivot
points on the links go slightly past being perfectly locked up.) But if the links are not lined up straight, as in an out of battery discharge the links will fold just as surely as your legs will if you are standing up straight and somebody sneaks up behind you and shoves your knees forward. Just as your legs would collapse from under you, so will a set of toggle links fold from the force of recoil and the bolt will come straight back. Whether you get a nasty whack against your fingers from the lever, or whether the bolt comes straight back at your eye is a crap shoot.

Toggle links have no positive locking feature. The '86 and he '92 have a pair of solid steel locking bars that slide straight up in the
frame to lock the bolt in place even before the bolt is fully in battery. If a discharge should happen, the bolt is not going anywhere, unless the charge is strong enough to rupture the frame. That's why the '86 and '92 did away with the trigger blocking interlock activated by the lever. There was no need, because the locking system made an out of battery discharge less hazardous.

I also agree with Fox Creek Kid about the different pressure spike with Smokeless and BP. You cannot compare them on a psi to psi basis. The pressure spike with Smokeless is sharper and will give the steel more of a shock than the gentler pressure curve of Black Powder.

The only .1% I dissagree with Fox Creek Kid is that I don't have a problem shooting SAAMI spec Smokeless ammo in a toggle link gun.

P.S. Happy Trails of the Smith shop has a neat solution to the potential problem of bolts flying back in Henrys and '66s. The bolt extension on these leverguns is only held in place on the bolt by a cross pin about 1/16" thick. If there is a problem such as an out of battery discharge, the only thing that keeps the bolt extension from flying out of the bolt is that 1/16" pin, and it can shear very easily. Hap mills a small slot on the underside of the bolt extension, and adds a set screw to the bolt that projects up into that slot. If the pin should shear, the set screw has a larger diameter and should retain the bolt extension. Since the Henry and '66 do not have the trigger block interlock, I had Hap install his retaining screw on my Henry when he did an action job to it.

I guess we are all in 99.9% agreement about the design elements and limitations of the toggle link action .  In addition, most CAS shooters are certainly in 99.9% agreement with your .1%  

As for the unlikely failure of the roll pin, I don't want to be shooting any kind of propellant black or white if that happens!

In any case, the new Uberti 1876 does not use the roll pin.  The new bolt and firing pin assembly is much like the original Winchester retractor.  The only change is they shortened it, and it does not serve the function of retracting the firing pin.   It is fitted up into a milled slot in the bolt, and captures the firing pin extension.  Hard to describe, so here are some visuals!

Original with retractor in place.

Uberti parts breakdown.

Showing retaining key being put into place.



BIG improvement, and actually is very close to the original Winchester design. I have heard, that this change has been made to the newest 1873s.  I hope it is being transitioned into all the toggle guns, including the Henry!

[Grizzly Adams]

The progressive reloading press is more dangerous than a machine gun in the wrong hands IMO. 

Now that's true!