First Try with the Iron Framed Cimarron

[Peter M. Eick]

Here is my first attempt at reasonable shooting.  This is one mag full (13 rounds) at 50 yards from the sitting position.  I was getting pelted by 223 and 308 brass which did not help my shooting, but I see that I need some improvement.  I was actually aiming toward the right hand side up a few inches to even get it on the paper.  It is sure a lot of fun to play with though!

[Will Ketchum]

Pete, it looks like you need to move the rear sight just a smigen to the right and up one notch

Will Ketchum (aka Pete Ersland)

[Peter M. Eick]

Agreed.   If I were to stay with factory, I would do so.  I decided I would get my reloads out and make sure they do the same thing before I started adjusting it too much.  I will give it a good whap with a brass hammer to the right before I try again.

[Buffalow Red]

what cal ?
will it take full power house loads

[Peter M. Eick]

44-40.

I am tenatively planning on working up toward 7.6 to 8 grns of Unique with a 200 grn lead slug as absolute max or a trailboss load.  I don't have my trailboss load cross checked yet but 6.4 grns sticks in my mind from Speer 14.

[litl rooster]

  If I might ask, what is the primarary use of this weapon?   This may factor what you load and how you loaded it.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The steel framed Henry is still a toggle link rifle, and like any toggle link it should be limited to SAAMI max pressure ammo.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

what cal ?
will it take full power house loads

Howdy!

Red Buff, yes - it certainly WILL.  It'll handle ALL factory loads to SAAMI specs.  There ARE some specialty loads for Rugers, North American and Contenders out (CorBon, and maybe a few others) but they are CLEARLY marked and NOT loaded to SAAMI standards.  They're geared toward hunting.

[Peter M. Eick]

The primary use will be target shooting at the range.  It will be solely for the fun of shooting it with lead bullets.  The targets will be paper bullseyes at 50 to 200 yrds.

The loads I am looking at are directly out of Speer #14, pg 681 for 200 grn FN lead nosed bullets. 8.6 grns of Unique is the max load, 6.4 grns of TB is the max load.  My prior experience with TB was that it is quite mild so I was not worried too much about working up to 6.4 grns of TB with a 200 grn lead slug.  I figured I would top out at around 8 grns of Unique which is about 8% off the max load of Unique.  According to Speer, these are both less then 13,000 CUP but over 10,000 CUP to keep from sticking the bullet in the bore. 

My first cross check was the Lasercast loading manual rev-1, pg 129 list unique at 8.0 grns as max.

My second cross check is the Hodgdon load site which under pistols list 6.5 grns as the max for a 200 grn lead with Trailboss.

My third cross check is the Aliant load site which lists with a 205 grn lead rn, 8.5 grns as max for Unique.

Now all guns are different and I will have to work up my loads, but I am reasonably confident that I have not listed any loads that are over SAAMI spec and all are "reasonable and prudent".   Having now loaded over a quarter million rounds with no blown guns or other problems I consider myself a slightly paranoid cautious reloader, but I am always looking for advice or tips.  Please let me know if you see something that I missed in my plans.

Thanks a bunch.

[stepnmud]

44WCF, 8grs. Unique & 200 gr. bullet sounds a little bit on hot side to me,I'm not disagreeing with reloading books, but thinking 7.5 grs Unique or even 7 grs. may work better for target loads. I'll find the online reload site and post it.

found on Alliant's site: does show 8grs. min.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Cowboy%20Load&gtypeid=5&weight=205&shellid=1008&bulletid=450

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Before I turned totally to the dark side my standard 44-40 load was 7.5 grains of Unique under a 200 grain lead RNFP bullet. I shot plenty of these through my original Winchester Model 1892. I always liked Unique because Trailboss came along it bulked up probably the most in these big old Black Powder cartridges.

I shot a few of those loads through my Uberti '73 when I first got it, but other than a few just to test it out I have shot nothing but Black Powder through the '73.

My Henry has never seen any Smokeless powder.

My 13th edition of the Speer manual seems to agree with your 14th edition. For Unique it lists a starting load of 7.8 grains and a Max load of 8.6 grains with a 200 grain lead bullet.

If I wuz you, I would make up about 10 loads each with 200 grain bullets in .2 grain increments between 7.8 grains and 8.6 grains and see what shot the best. I would shoot 2 five shot groups with each load and compare. Then I would make another trip to the range with some loads bracketed around the best load by .1 grains to make a final decision on the most accurate load. I would not go over the 8.6 grains in a toggle link gun, even a steel framed one. I would probably throttle back myself, and stay away from the Max load. That is the primary reason I used to use 7.5 grains of Unique. My RCBS powder measure was pretty reliable, but it could occaissionally hiccup and give me a variation of about .2 grains. By throttling back a bit I was always confident that my loads would be under the Max even if the powder measure hiccuped.

[Peter M. Eick]

Driftwood,

You have described my "ladder" technique perfectly. 

Max loads are not what I am after, accuracy, reliability and safety are my primary goals.  If I wanted more power I could go to any number of different rifles.  My interest is a good reliable target load so I will work up the load gradually. 

My expectations (?) are that around 7.8 to 8.0 will be the best load for Unique and around 6.4 for trailboss. My track record with TB seems to show that max loads are about the most accurate.

Midway reports that the dies and parts are on the way, so I will have to start making rounds here in a few days.

Thank you again for all of the advice.

[Will Ketchum]

I used Unique for over 30 years but after I bought my first chronograph found a 100 fps difference if I held the muzzle up or muzzle down prior to the shot.

Mike Daley of Hodgdon's told me to try Titegroup.  I did and found virtually no difference as to how I held the muzzle.  It just isn't powder to primer sensitive like Unique.   I have been using Titegroup now for probably 10 years and really like it.

Will Ketchum

[Peter M. Eick]

I have two complaints about titegroup.  One is the small charge size.  It is just too small for comfort for me.  I want something that will at least fill 1/2 the case to avoid double charges on a progressive.  The second is the "titegroup stain".  I shoot a lot of 38/44's and titegroup leaves a nasty stain on the cylinder that takes a lot of work to get off. 

I will have to consider getting another pound of titegroup and try it again in the rifle.  Since I plan upon one load at a time the progress issue is less.

Thanks for the advice.

[Will Ketchum]

Pete, I use the Titegroup mostly in my stainless Vaqueros and polish them with "Mothers Mag and Aluminum Polish."  Really cleans them up quick.
As for the light load, I put a RCBS powder check and lock out die in my progressive.  If the charge is too light or too heavy it locks up the press.  I do check it by over charging and under charging from time to time.  it has always worked....so far

In the 45 Colt case you can get a double charge of Unique in the case also.  Im not sure about the 38.


Will Ketchum

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Yes, it is possible to fit a double charge of Unique into 45 Colt, 44-40, and 38 Sp. It will fit in without overflowing. But the powder takes up so much room that a double charge will be really obvious to even the most casual glance. Can't always say that about some other powders. That's the reason the old eyeball peeks into each and every case as it cycles around my press just before I plop a bullet on top.

[litl rooster]

  I have the same issues as Peter with Titegroup.  DJ is right about double charging the case it is obvious if you would double charge.  A problem I have had is not being able to tell if the powder dropper did drop a load, when using my Dillon press.  This is the main reason I like Trailboss.  I have shot very few smokeless loads thru my Henry's mostly to reclaim brass.  However the Miss's preferrs smokeless for her weapons.   I'm interesting in seeing the results of a load for ranges up to 200 yards, be it smokeless or the Holy Black .....lr