What is a 44 Henry Flat C.F?

[major]

To All
I have seen this on several other posts and was wondering what is a 44 Henry Flat C.F? Is it the same as converting to 44 Russian?
Terry

[Will Ketchum]

From "Cartridges of the World" "This is a centerfire version of the rimfire 44 Henry Flat.  It is believed to have been a special cartridge manufactured for the final l lot 1866 Henry rifles y Winchester."  It had 200 gr and a 227 gr. bullet  with 26 to 28 grs. of ffg or fffg.

I believe that the 44 Russian is very close to it in size and power.

Will Ketchum

[major]

Will
Then why would anyone convert there Uberti Henry to this caliber?  Isn't it obsolete and no longer available?
Terry

[Major 2]

That would be a question better put to Ottawa Creek Bill & Halfway Creek Charlie...
I know OCB completed his conversion to 44 flat . I'm pretty sure Charlie completed his , but he has not been around since November
( some of us are a bit concerned too )
I believe their reason was to shoot the Henry in a period correct caliber.

If you search the Henry forum you will find the write up and the photos....

[Will Ketchum]

I thought they were converting to 44 Colt.   OCB has done at least one Colt conversion to that caliber.  It to is very close to the 44 Russian.

Will Ketchum

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

From THE HISTORY OF WINCHESTER FIREARMS, 1866-1980, 5th Ed., by Duncan Barnes;

page 12;
"Factory records indicate , however, that during later years occasional small lots of M/66 firearms were manufactured; the record of the last firearm assembled bears the date August 1898.  In 1891 1,020 M/66 component parts, on hand for many years, were used in the assembly of rifles chambered for the 44 "Henry" center fire cartridge and shipped to a firm in Brazil.  In making up this lot of  guns it was necessary to change  the breech pin by discarding the Breech Pin Snapper, substituting a center fire firing pin and also inserting a threaded bushing in the face of the breech pin base with a hole in the center to allow the point of the firing pin to protrude and hit the primer.  All other components were the same as previously used  on the standard M/66, 44 caliber rimfire rifles, except for the chambering of the barrel."

A perusal of my COTW,3d, shows that the cartridge dimensions of the 44 Henry Flat CF most closely match the .44 American, not the 44 Russian. Having said that, the most practical modern cartridge suitable for the 1866 would be the 44 Russian.

UBERTI, take note!

[Coffinmaker]

The .44 Henry Flat CF is indeed obsolete.  It is however very close to the .44 Russian when loaded with black powder. 

The current manufacture Uberti '66s chambered for .44 Special can be modified to run .44 Russian but it is a real pain to do.  A current Uberti Henry, if chambered for .44 Special can be set up to run .44 Russian quite easily.  The problem is finding an Uberti Henry in .44 Special.  Uberti didn't make allot of them.
If you really have to have a "period" close rifle, it can be done, but for me the effort simply isn't worth it.  After an awful lot of work, all you'll have is period "close."

Coffinmaker

[major]

Since the subject of .44 Russian is being brought up, does anyone know what kind of accuracy I would get if I shoot a .44 Russian out of my 44-40 Henry?  I was wondering because in N-SSA we shoot team competition and I can only load 13 in my magazine but if I used a .44 Russian I could load 16 in the magazine.  This would give me 3 more shots (misses probably) at the breakables before I had to go to loading single shot.
Terry

[Will Ketchum]

Well the 44-40 is a bottle neck case so the body is larger than that of the Russian.  There are those who say that you can't shoot the Russians out of a 44-40 chamber but they are wrong since my Henry feeds the Russians and they shoot okay.  The problem is that the case doesn't seal the chamber so you get a lot of blowbye and there for fouling.  Ottawa Creek Bill  made a chamber sleeve so he could shoot shorter cartridges in his.

Will Ketchum

[litl rooster]

major, my understanding is the n-ssa allows the .44-40 for the carbine team use.

[major]

Will,
Does Ottawa Creek Bills gun in .44 Russian have any blow by and does he still use a .428 bullet or has he changed the entire barrel? 
With your 44-40 about how many .44 Russian shots can you fire before the works get gummed up enough that you have to stop?  How is accuracy effected at 50 yards?

Litl rooster
Yes N-SSA allows both the .45LC and the .44-40 for competition.  I am just trying to improve my score by increasing the capacity in the magazine.
Terry

[Will Ketchum]

Will,
Does Ottawa Creek Bills gun in .44 Russian have any blow by and does he still use a .428 bullet or has he changed the entire barrel? 
With your 44-40 about how many .44 Russian shots can you fire before the works get gummed up enough that you have to stop?  How is accuracy effected at 50 yards?

Litl rooster
Yes N-SSA allows both the .45LC and the .44-40 for competition.  I am just trying to improve my score by increasing the capacity in the magazine.
Terry

I can't say.  I'll see if I can get him to answer you.

Will Ketchum

[Montana Slim]

Will,
Does Ottawa Creek Bills gun in .44 Russian have any blow by and does he still use a .428 bullet or has he changed the entire barrel? 
With your 44-40 about how many .44 Russian shots can you fire before the works get gummed up enough that you have to stop?  How is accuracy effected at 50 yards?

I don't recall all the details, but recall OKB converted a .45 Colt Henry to shoot .44 Colt in it's original form (having a .45 caliber heeled bullet). He shoots converted 1860 Colts using the same cartridge.

You can probably find all the details and photos by searching back a page or three in the forum for the thread.

Slim

[Fox Creek Kid]

Here are some original .44 Henry CF with BRASS & copper cases & made in France. 


http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279&highlight=henry