The Spencer Carbine and CW carbine sling

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Howdy toi the camp and Merry Christmas!

I have been doing a lot of black rifle reading and even watched some stuff on Outdoor channel about Carbines (M4's and CAR-15 type) and transitions to pistol.  All of it says that the NEW single point slings that hook on to the carbine off-hand side behind the grip are the cats meow in tactical thinking.  Iy is worn over the weak side shoulder, under the strong side arms, and attaches to the M4 with a single hook.

Imagine the guy who came up with this NEW idea.  Only problem is, the 1833 Halls carbine was carried this way by Dragoons with the carbine sling and hook before the Civil War, and virtually all of the Cavalry carbines were carried this way from the Civil War into the Indian Wars.  The sling ring and bar were located just behind the center of gravity on the wrist of the off side of the weapon. They would "transition" to their secondary weapons (revolvers) exactly the same as the modern 7th CAV in Iraq transitions from their single point.  I wonder what current Guru claims tto have invented the idea? 

A good idea 150 years ago might be a good idea now. Another example beside the carbine sling is the  .450 bushmaster and .50 Beowolf M4s are throwing 300-350 grain big lead pills for close range major blood bearing organ and vessel destruction for quick incapacitation. That idea is hundreds of years old!

Just some food for thought.

PS  I have been just lurking quietly.  BEEN TOO BUSY TO POST MUCH!

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

[Harve Curry]

That's pretty interesting Tuolomne Lawman. I wasn't aware of how the new tactical sling is worn, see them but never gave it a second look or thought. Didn't know our miliitary was using  450 bushmaster and .50 Beowolf either.
I read on militaryhorse.org about our soldiers in Afganistan using Austrailian stock saddles and scabbards made for the M4. The saddles are purchased in either Pakistan or India, The M4 scabbards are made in the USA.  I have an AR but hardly ever use it since I enjoy the old stuff so much.
Merry Christmas,
Bill

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Merry Christmas pard!

Our military isn't using the 450 Bushmaster or 50 Beowolf, but the Beowolf  has a following as a tactical entry and sub 100 yard gun.  The .450 Bushmaster is just out, but I am sure it will surpass the Beowolf.

That is really interesting about us having horseback soldiers (real soldiers) again!

[St. George]

A return to 'horse soldiers' isn't in the cards - they were used for the short while that SF was operational in the ealy days of the conflict - as were dune buggies and ATV's.

You use what's available...

The carbine sling was developed to insure that the weapon stayed with the mounted trooper - not as a tactical device, but as a big, leather lanyard that was often used in conjunction with a simple 'ring' scabbard attached to the McClellan that held the muzzle close to the saddle - and not flying wildly around.

The current slings used with the M4's are tactical slings in nature - allowing several carrying options - dependant upon perceived threat.

We saw the slings used on HK's and found that they'd work well for our issued weaponry, so we contracted for them.

Slings are a funny thing - they do have a value - but operationally in Viet Nam, and in Northern Ireland and Africa - they weren't used, since having (and keeping) your weapon in your hands was a pretty sound tactical idea, and sling keepers are noisy.

The current sling in issue for the M16-series weapon is a black nylon affair with two sliding buckles - adjustable only for carrying comfort - called the  'silent sling' by the surplus dealers - but not in nomenclature.

It most closely resembles the sling used by the Brits with the Enfield rifle.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I disagree about the carbine sling of old not being a "Tactical device".  It was very much a tactical device.  It kept it handy for the trooper, it allowed him to transition to revolver or saber, and not loose it, and transition back.  Having actually used both, the carbine sling in mounted and dismounted Civil War re-enacting, and the tactical sling (H&K type) as a LE officer for 20 years and military for five years, there is virtually no difference in application or purpose.

As for the scabbard (actually called a carbine boot), I believe it was developed after the Civil War during the Indian wars to replace the Sling.  I kn ow from personal experience that I could not put the Spencer on the sling in a boot on the McClellan and ride the horse.  you would get very tangled up.  It is enough of a pain without the boot with carbine and saber.

[geo]

dunno if this went the first time so will try again...

i have a beowulf .50 and it is a heavy duty 100 yd or less blaster. with a holosight its accuracy is astonishing. i hope hornady makes a leverevolution round for it as they do for the .450 bushmaster. would put its range out to 150 or 200 yards. the only drawback is that the barrel heats up very quickly and the p.o.a. goes to h***. otherwise it is a serious big game brush gun or an urban defense (?) cannon. i reload with hollow points that i ordered with the piece. thanks for the info on the single point sling. could be a holiday gift for myself. good luck, geo.

[St. George]

There's a leather 'ring' often associated with the Sharps Carbines - used during the Civil War, but in general issue to Cavalry units as a part of their equipments.

All it held was the muzzle - more, if the trooper were short in stature, as most were, since a lighter trooper was easier on the horse.

The 'boot' came later - and is associated with the Trapdoor carbine - featuring a flared brass 'throat'.

The carbine sling continued to be issued throughout the Indian Wars - and the 'sling bar and ring' was a part of the Model 1896 Krag - though by that time, a regular saddle scabbard was issued - obviating the use of one more piece of heavy gear, no doubt to the relief of those older troopers familiar with the earlier system.

Insofar as the 'tactical' use - a lanyard offers the same ability - allowing the trooper to drop an unloaded weapon to the side - keeping it with him - and changing to whatever weapon that was still usable - so in that light, both pieces of equipment can be considered 'tactical'.

Randy Steffen's various works on the equipment of the horse soldier goes into some detail - as do the Quartermaster handbooks of the era.

The M4 sling allows carrying the piece at the side, horizontal front, angled, back, muzzle up - muzzle down - all dependent upon need at the moment.

The carbine sling allows but one method - down and to the rear

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Interesting.  Good info, thank you.

The single point slings I am starting to see only are worn exactly as the carbine sling, and only allow muzzle down carry as it hooks on at the receiver end of the lower receiver extension tube part of the M4 stock.  Some have a bungie cord type material to such it up close to the chest.  I prefer the H&K type 3-point sliding tactical sling as it allows the carry option you refer to.  That is the kind of sling I use on my semi-auto M4.

Several of those I know who have gone and "played in the sandbox" (their description) but couldn't get their hands on a three point or single point, used what they called "patrol slings" which is a padded M60 type sling that is hooked to the front sight tower, over the left shoulder and to the top of the rear, worn long.

Any on these slings seem to have more application in close up, urban environment, clearing houses.  When I was LE, if I was in the bush (I was a rural Deputy in the mountains) looking for the bad guy, I carried my XM177 or M1A1 carbine without the sling attached to my body, often dispensing with it.  It tended to add to the tangle factor in the thick brush and woods! I would carry it shouldered in a muzzle low position, elbows tucked in tight, so as not to sweep others in the search.

[Harve Curry]

The carbine socket/thimble on the 1859 McClellan,( R/S attached to the "spider ring"), helped carry most issue carbines of that era. I'm about 5'5" and adjust the sling so the carbine muzzle is at my ankle when afoot. The socket/thimble kept the carbine from swinging, supported some of the weight if adjusted so, and gave the trooper a free right hand when he needed it.
Earlier, and over lapping the same era, was the muzzle bucket hanging by a leather strap from the R/S pommel of the saddle, just the muzzle went into it.
The 1874 model carbine boot, still used with the sling, supported the carbine from forearm to reciever hammer. But the hammer would wear through the leather. The boot was improved with the model 1885 having a brass throat reinforcement. Both models hung from the R/S(off side) bt a strap to cantle stud, plus strapped and buckeled to the 1/4 strap rigging.
Locally, a friend of mine taught some S.F. mountain horsemanship with mule and horses. They even went cross country in heavy mountains with night vision equipment.
More about Afganistan, saddles, M4 scabbards at:
http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7110
http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8222

[Drydock]

I remember when they issued these tactical sllings to us in Kuwait.  My Chief thought they were the greatest damn thing.  Until I pointed out that should folks come under fire and hit the deck, the weapon would be pinned under them, and they could not raise it over their head from a prone position to return fire. 

Thus it was I carried my M-4 slung from an M1859 carbine sling.  Along with my El Paso Saddelry "Patton" rig, it was a hell of a lot more flexible and easier to get into action than all those plastic wonder rigs they kept giving us to try out.  Not to mention the overweight, sloppy, down right useless "Tactical" thigh holsters.

[Harve Curry]

Sgt. Drydock,
I have to ask. How did you ever keep your personal/unissued equipments, and stay out of trouoble? I read now it is very strict and can land you in the brig. But maybe not as strict 15 years ago? I have no experience in that.

[Drydock]

This was 2005, I was a Master-at-Arms, 1st Class Petty Officer, USN, assigned to 5th Fleet security.  I did convoy escort duty a few times In southern Iraq, TAD to try to teach army reservists which end the bullet came out of, (They seemed to think I was some sort of SEAL, and never failed to salute the USN "Crow" rank badge on my hat)  but I spent most of my deployment skippering patrol boats.

The USN seems perpetualy short of equipment for its security forces, with most of the decent gear going to the junior enlisted. Spear carriers should get the good spears.  Senior enlisted and officers were unofficaly encouraged to get their own gear, with the unoffical rule being, as long as it was black, you could use it. 

It also helped that I was in my last 2 years before retiring, and thus the closer I got to retirement, the less anyone could tell me what I could not do.  My last day on patrol I skippered my boat wearing a cutlass and spyglass.  Damn that was fun.    

[Steel-eye Steve]

While the mounted SF troopers in Afghanistan are pretty cool, it was pretty much a special affair. Africa would see some of the last use of horse cavalry. The Rhodesians would field Grey's Scouts and the South Africans would also field mounted troops. Both of these pretty much infantry equipment while mounted, rifles carried by standard slings. The Portuguese would field a dragoon unit in the 60-70s which had their own specialized equipment for weapons. Note buckets for G3 rifles

[Steel-eye Steve]

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[Steel-eye Steve]

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